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The Indeterminacy of Free Will

 
 
ferrous
 
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 12:47 pm
"God Does Not Play Dice"…

So Albert Einstein was quoted when dealing with the indeterminacy of Neils Bohr's randomness of Quantum Theory.

"In human freedom in the philosophical sense I am definitely a disbeliever. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. (Einstein)"

Einstein believed that quantum physics was incomplete. he was sure that one day an explanation would be found which would explain the causes of the apparent "indeterminacy" and once again make it plain that the universe was governed by laws. For the last thirty years he worked on his "Unified Field Theory" , never realizing it.

"I wish to adduce reasons which keeps me from falling in line with the opinion of almost all contemporary theoretical physicists. I am, in fact, firmly convinced that the essentially statistical character of contemporary quantum theory is solely to be ascribed to the fact that this [theory] operates with an incomplete description of physical systems." (Einstein)

He goes on to state:

"One arrives at very implausible theoretical conceptions, if one attempts to maintain the thesis that the statistical quantum theory is in principle capable of producing a complete description of an individual physical system. On the other hand, those difficulties of theoretical interpretation disappear, if one views the quantum-mechanical description as the description of ensembles of systems."

Neils Bohr believed "that matter was fundamentally indeterminate, and our knowledge of it limited to probabilities."

"Bohr argued against both determinism and realism. Determinism is the philosophy spurred by Newtonian mechanics, which says, that if all is known about a system at one point in time, all may be known about that quantity at any point in time. Thus, supporting an anti-determinist view, Bohr argued that complete knowledge of the present can result only in a description of what the future most probably will be like."

Thus, both Bohr and Einstein argued for and against the randomness of "Cause and Effect". Einstein stating that "Quantum probability is Epistemic (purely intellectual or cognitive" and Bohr arguing that "Quantum probability is Ontic" (having real being or existence) that is built into nature.

So now through all of this copying, cutting and pasting, and paraphrasing we come to the original content of this statement:

"Do we (humans in general) want to believe that our will is or can be formed freely from chains of natural causation? "Or does it imply that voluntary acts are not in some sense caused at all. Is that the same as saying that a voluntarist is committed to accepting a random component in human actions?"

Einstein, believes that it is not possible, while Bohr argues the randomness is filled with "quantum probabilities and organized chaos."

I would like to believe in Einstein, as to certain conditions lead up to "Cause and Effect", but at this point, we are not knowledgeable enough to disprove the probability of randomness.

Quotes:

"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice." Albert Einstein

"Not only does God play dice with the Universe - he sometimes casts them where they can't be seen." Stephen Hawking

"It is often stated that of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. In fact, some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct." Michio Kaku Hyperspace, Oxford University Press, 1995, p 263

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." (Carroll, Lewis, Alice in Wonderland.)

"What I am going to tell you about is what we teach our physics students in the third or fourth year of graduate school... It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don't understand it. You see my physics students don't understand it... That is because I don't understand it. Nobody does." (Physics Instructor)

Quote: "I think I go now, and try and think of some more impossible things"... ferrous
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 7,446 • Replies: 90
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 07:20 pm
I need a drink after reading that.
0 Replies
 
babsatamelia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 07:39 pm
Fascinating, though difficult topic, ferrous!
Welcome aboard, and I do hope you enjoy
A2K as much as I do. I wish I could have
known Einstein, he said one thing I have
always remembered, "a truly intelligent
person - could always communicate with any
other person, regardless of their level of
education" I admire a man who understands
that true intelligence is not found in big words,
but in simple terms that could be explained to
even the least educated of all of us. I think that
I DO agree with the concept about true freedom
being an impossibility by our very nature.
I am also CERTAIN, beyond a shadow of a doubt
that more that is hidden than is seen. Of course,
quantum physics will be found to be an incomplete,
foolish belief of the past - as it was when the world
discovered that the earth was not flat after all.
If only we knew how little we know. But then,
what great mysteries & unfoldings lie before us
0 Replies
 
Mapleleaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 07:55 pm
I am intriqued, but not prepared to bandy about as an academic. Let's see where how the thread develops. Wilso, what is your drink of choice?
0 Replies
 
Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 08:08 pm
Only minutes ago, I finally got out of the corner and had taken off my Dunce cap...

Einstein and this Bohr guy had entirely too much spare time.
0 Replies
 
pueo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 09:44 pm
ferrous, in short you're asking if there is such a thing as free will.

i would say no. because if there was free will, i wouldn't have read your post more than twice.

or be here, when i should be working.

i need an aspirin.................
0 Replies
 
JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 10:16 pm
Don't pay any attention to the above post ferrous it is a great question and/or statment welcome to A2k. BTW I agree with Lash Goth those guys must have had to much time on their hands. However, I do egerly await more interaction on this subject.
0 Replies
 
pueo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 10:19 pm
oh, yeah i agree with joanne, good post on your part ferrous.
0 Replies
 
JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 10:22 pm
My thoughts are the Setena and JLNobody will be able to clear everything up for us.
0 Replies
 
Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jan, 2003 10:23 pm
Agreed with Joanne and pueo--

There are some forward thinking philosophy guys lurking around. I know they will find you soon. I will enjoy looking in.

Welcome!
0 Replies
 
Hazlitt
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 12:34 am
Ferrous, If you had caught me fifty years ago, you'd have thrown me into a deep philosophical funk. My life is littered with unanswered questions, and this is one of the big ones. I do not expect to have it answered to my satisfaction, and I doubt that it will be answered to yours. I do hope that the great minds will continue to work on it, but I expect they will, in the end, suffer frustration (but I hope not). In the nean time, I'm going to do what I have always done: set aside the question and enjoy the reality of free will, or the illusion, which ever the case may be.

Oh, yes, and welcome to Able2know. You're just the sort we like to get.

Lash Goth, we all need something to do while we are waiting for the grass to grow.
0 Replies
 
ferrous
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 09:03 am
Head Hurting...
I either need an aspirin or a bottle of Glenlevit. Trying to think of these "impossible things" has me feeling like I need something to ease the pain.

Einstein thought of these types of things for the last 30 years of his life, but failed to prove his "Unified Field Theory." It sort of makes all of us "anal attentive" types feel sort of cheated, that there is no unified order in the universe. Either that, or we just don't have the enough intelligence to see it, now.

Quantum Physics is the realm of "Randomness." Argue as we wish, but as long as it is around, we hold out the hope, that we do have "Free Will" over our existence. Hell, there might even be hope that "Mankind" can endure, at least for a little while, longer.

PS. The aspirin won out over the Scotch. Not much of a decision there. Since I'm off to work, it really isn't much of a choice.

Everyone have a good one and thanks for the "Welcome"… ferrous
0 Replies
 
quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 02:55 pm
ferrous..welcome..and great thanks for adding all the info..yes, I had to read it twice myself but, I thought it grand about the dice and the different sides..it is a fabulous thing, is it not?
Just keep aspirin and Scotch around and eventually you'll get to the point where chaotic free will is your accepted choice...maybe.
Wink
Im the organized anal type myself and sometimes....you just gotta let it go man.
Really though, its fascinating but, dont try to peg yourself to one hook, and continue your searching, you'll find a great many things are on the table. But, thats just my opinion, and Im at work unable to gather drink...which would make it all so much clearer.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:10 pm
The following links provide an interesting discussion of free will and the diametric, fatalism:

1.Fatalism: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05791a.htm

2.Free will: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

Looking forward to your comments after reading
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 09:49 pm
free will
Wilso, I was smarter; I had a drink BEFORE reading it.
0 Replies
 
ferrous
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2003 09:09 am
No Comment
Sorry, but I'd rather not comment on Judeo-Christian theology.

As for fatalism, the air went out of my bubble, when some physics predicted that the universe was not expanding and contracting, as believed, but only expanding. The projected time of approximately 260 trillion years, before the universe expanded to a point that all the energy would have diluted to the point that all the lights go out, and all the matter just floats around in darken space.

Makes me want to stop procrastinating, and get busy finishing up all the things I want get done. Heck, as fast as these years keep rolling by, that 260 trillion years could seem like a blink of the eyes.

That is, if one can believe these guys…
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2003 09:30 am
free will
Funny, I willingly submitted an opinion last night, but it's not here. I guess it was not meant to be.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2003 09:37 am
free will
By the way, I copied that opinion to the clipboard before "submitting" it. Will someone tell me how to retrieve it from the clipboard?
0 Replies
 
Kail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2003 09:48 am
Ctrl + C = Copy
Ctrl + V = Paste

Or right-click (on Mac: hold down the mouse button a while longer) or look in the browser's Edit menu.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2003 10:00 am
free will
Kail, I assume you are answering my call for help. THanks. But where do I go to put in ctrl+c and ctrl+v? Bear with me; I'm still getting used to the ball point pen.
0 Replies
 
 

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