astrology fortune-telling etc.still valuable today?

Um...Though I am a believer in the paranormal, having had many paranormal experiences myself, I think astrology and fortune telling have little scientific value. It would be difficult to quantify such things scientifically. As Shakespear wrote, "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves".

Astrologists and fortune tellers would be better served if they just went to school to become psychologists rather than duping people for their money by telling them what they want to hear in that spooky, vague, mysterious way. I do however, believe in precognition, but I don't yet trust my powers. For example, last night, while arguing with my wife, she told me that the reason I don't understand her is because of my astrological chart. I calmly told her that she was spouting a weak pile of crap, because astrology is a crock of ****, despite my precognition that this would lead to hours more of endless torture. In the future, I predict that I'll learn to keep my mouth shut.

I once wrote that all of the practicing astrologers I have known here in New England were women with graduate degrees in social work or psychology who gave up more traditional forms of therapy because astrology works better.


I also had a statement on an internet dating service that I found astrology more helpful than traditional therapy and a man wrote to me that he had no interest in me because of that. I replied that I had no interest in a man as narrow minded as he is.

What these women like -- and one was a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan -- is that astrology is the opposite of Rogerian counselling, where the therapist sits and nods and asks how you feel about that?

Astrologers tell their clients to get off their duffs. One told me that I had a strong mind-body connection (doctors spent years examing some psychosomatic illnesses I have had) and that I could help from internalizing my frustrations if a punched a pillow. ANother of her recommendations was to fill "baggies" with sand and through them at my garage. Helps and is better than nailbiting, indigestion, rashes and agoraphobia!

A psychic recently looked at me and said, "Your kitchen is too dark. You need more light. Put something pink in it." So when pink aprons, oven mitts and towels went on sale at WilliamsSonoma (where I work), I bought them. I like pink and while I would never go the pink appliance route (saw this: ugh!) or the pink granite counter route (saw this as well: disaster!), the pink apron hanging in my kitchen lifts my spirits.

I tend to go with what Steven Hawkins says about astrology: it's so vague that you can't prove it right or wrong, which is very... convenient.

Astrology may be better in many ways than Rogerian counselling, but does that necessarily mean it isn't a load of rubbish? Putting pink things in your kitchen might've cheered you up, but why do you think that is? don't you think it's just because pink is a bright, stimulating colour? Or that you're just satisfied to be taking action in trying to cheer yourself up?

Where exactly do the stars come into this?

Some things to consider:

That much of talking therapy is not scientific.

That Freud initially was much more scientific and medical but was put off the point by more established practitioners and the general public who felt his patients' fancified their experiences.

That perhaps astrology, like sociology, psychology and anthropology, is based on long observations of human behavior.

That there is more to Heaven and Earth than dreampt about in your philosophy -- a paraphrase but good enough for the internet.

Some right winger on abuzz criticized the women I know who gave up therapy for astrology on the grounds that none of them had degrees in the hard sciences. That totally misses the point which is they earned master's degrees and doctoral degrees in order to help people but felt that astrology did the job better. THey never set out to physicists but therapists!

And the pink has nothing to do with the stars: a psychic told me that. She also greeted me with the words, "The electricity in your house is dangerous and you have plumbing problems." That followed my hello and nothing more. Both statements are true. There is more to heaven and earth . . .

So what are you saying, this psychic is a clairvoyant and can see that you have plumbing problems? Or what? Those statements are also rather vague - whether the electricity is dangerous is debatable. I just don't see any strong evidence for the value of astrology or the existence of precognition, etc. There is some evidence, but most of it comes from anecdotes, like those you have described, which really is not enough. I don't believe that precognition and such are impossible, I'm just reluctant to have any faith in them at all. More to heaven and eart than what? In fact, let's just focus on earth, since it probably exists, whereas heaven probably doesn't (IMO). More to Earth than what? Science? Yes, probably, but does that necessarily mean that people have psychic abilities?

A psychic is actually cheaper than hiring both an electrician and a plumber to tell you the same thing. The problem is, psychics can't fix those problems.

What I am saying is that I walked into Lori's consulting room, we each said hello, and I sat down while she began writing notes to me. She looked up and said that the electricity in my house isn't safe. I was a bit taken aback and I said that no, it was not as squirrels had chewed through wires leading to the third floor. She then said that I has plumbing problems as well. It's true: I have been unable to use my washer since November because the drain is blocked.

Now, you ask if the psychic is a clairvoyant. Duh! This is a woman police consult in unsolved crimes.

Haven't you ever had "feelings" that you should do something or be somewhere that panned out? Of course, we also have feelings that don't but there is a certain sort of precognition that everyone taps into with positive results.

It doesn't take a great deal of logic to know that the horoscope in the daily paper is pretty much rubbish so far as any tangible usefulness goes. I likewise hold in dubious regard many of those who exploit the public doing psychic readings or personalized horoscopes.

At the same time I believe some people are gifted with useful psychic and/or prophetic abilities and use these for good.

plainoldme, you're still just jumping to conclusions. I'm not going to say anything more, because I'm on holiday now and this is costing money. I really came on to look at any posts on the gun control debate, but that seems to have disappeared for soem reason

Oh wait, there it is. I'm stupid.

Hmm. First of, I'd say that astrology doesn't exactly float my boat. Still, I don't believe science has, or ever will have, all the answers.

agrote says that Hawking once said that astrology is so vague that it cannot be proved to be either right or wrong. I daresay, doesn't the same go(up to a certain degree of course) for philosophy? And yet this is a question in a philosophy forum ;-)

There is more out there then meets the scientists eye. But if astrologers are the people who can see it? I doubt so.