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France Moves to Prevent Food Wastage

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 09:43 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Such authoritarian dreamers often seek universal application of their obsessions.
He is a member of the Courbevoie, Pour une ville moderne et solidaire, a local right-wing liste (Miscellaneous right [divers droite, DVD]
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 09:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I' sure you enjoyed pointing that out to me.

There are idiots and potential Savonarolas everywhere. Some are even found among Westphalian Social Democrats.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 09:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Pity the Frenbch... adding to the chains they must drag behind them.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 08:14 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Meanwhile other government programs, also designed to protect us from imagined evils, prohibit scientific innovations that promise to significantly increase the production of food crops in areas that need them the most.
Do you have an example of an imagined evil or a prohibited scientific innovation ?

Quote:
Consider the poverty and starvation attendant to Cultural Revolution in China; contemporary Zimbabwe; or even the forced collectivization of agriculture in ther Soviet Union. All of these grotesque cruelties resulted from government programs organized as you put it "for the betterment of all".
They had nothing to do with the betterment of all and everything to do with political survival at any cost .

I asked if you have any recommendations to prevent waste . I then said otherwise the rich will waste and the poor will starve . That is a situation that is growing and does not require "that excessive consumption or waste of food by the rich is a proximate cause for the starvation of others?" It simply means there is a solution not the cause of a problem . I would also repeat "You seem to have principles that prevent practicality " .

What would be wrong with seeing if it works rather than getting on a high horse and say it wont work whilst enjoying your more than adequate lunch ?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 08:54 pm
@Ionus,
Miracle rice, hybrid variety developed by traditional methods in this country over a genberation ago, significantly increased yields and reduced starvation throughout Asia soon after it was introduced and it thrives still. Today plants genetically modified to avhieve the same things, but by more precise and reliable means are prevented from application in countries that sorely need them by threats of economic reprisal by welloff European countries with highly regulated and protected local agricultural establishments.

You are entirely incorrect in your assertions about the Cultural Revolution and the USSR, etc.. While the motives of the leaders (which you can't possibly know for sure) may well have been to enhance or increase their control, the fact is popular acceptance was indeed achieved by way of promises to achieve the "betterment of all" or a "workers paradise" through these revolutions and only after generations were sacdrificed to totalitarianism and poverty were the emptiness of these promises made clear.

My objection such laws is based on my dislike of totalitarian methods of governance in which "Everything not prohibited is mandatory" to borrow a phrase by T.H. White.

If people choose to waste less food and profit by doing so, without adverse effect, others will imitate them. What is gained by forcing them to do so? Freedom of choice is important, and its value is best recognized after it is lost.

You are the one figurtively sitting on a high horse and proposing to dictate to others, not me.

Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 09:51 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
My objection such laws is based on my dislike of totalitarian methods of governance
I think the modern democracies like France are a long way from totalitarian government, dont you ?

Quote:
If people choose to waste less food and profit by doing so, without adverse effect, others will imitate them. What is gained by forcing them to do so?
So...you are prepared to feed the poor but only if there is a profit in it ? Wasnt that the problem in the first place ?

Quote:
You are the one figurtively sitting on a high horse and proposing to dictate to others, not me.
On the contrary . People are trying to solve a problem and you are telling them not to .

Quote:
Freedom of choice is important, and its value is best recognized after it is lost..
Fine words . Fine inedible words .
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 10:20 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

People are trying to solve a problem and you are telling them not to .
quote]

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I voiced my opinion about a new law in France (which is hardly a totalitartian country, but which has an exceedingly well-protected agricultural industry and a host of invested bureaucratic interests in this area - not to mention high unemployment and scleroitic growth).

I also have repeatedly observed that in nations and organizations of almost any kind the best and most effective solutions are very often those that arise voluntarially from the bottom strata, while those imposed from above are very often impeded by unforseen, adverse side effects.

The lessons associated with the greater productivity of free economies compared to the dismal performance of regulated ones appear to be so great and pervasive as to not need repeating here.

In my perception, one of the central themes of human history is the misery caused by those who presumed to know what was good for everyone else and were willing to force them to do it.

Malthus has been proven wrong many times over.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 10:27 pm
@georgeob1,
Noted, but do you have a cure for the poor who need feeding apart from a vague if they can afford it then they can eat ? Do you have an alternate solution ?
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 10:46 pm
@Ionus,
I'm not aware that the French have mandated that the food saved by limiting waste will be prtomptly given to those who truly need it. Is this a provision of the new law I missed?

We have not yet eliminated hunger or poverty in the world, and I frankly doubt we ever will do so completely.

The most effective initiatives of which I am aware in reducing hunger have involved increasing productivity through either (1) improved production practices or scientific innovation or (2) economic and individual freedom so that what is most wanted is produced.

The most effective causes of increasing hunger appear to be drought, blight and socialism.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 10:54 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I'm not aware that the French have mandated that the food saved by limiting waste will be prtomptly given to those who truly need it. Is this a provision of the new law I missed?
Yes. (It must be given to charities who run free tables, distribute it etc) That's a similar procedure to local laws in Belgium (since 2013).
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2015 11:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
That's a similar procedure to local laws in Belgium (since 2013).
It's done here in Germany voluntarily, and just with "guidelines" by the federal and state ministries about what laws have to be observed. In our district, it works fine.

One side-effect: two bakeries closed their special shops, where they only sold bakery stuff from the day before (for half the price).
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 12:00 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The most effective initiatives of which I am aware in reducing hunger have involved increasing productivity through either (1) improved production practices or scientific innovation or (2) economic and individual freedom so that what is most wanted is produced.
Neither of these address waste, number (2) may appear to, but it is the current system and it cant cut it, though I agree both would help hunger .

Quote:
The most effective causes of increasing hunger appear to be drought, blight and socialism
I would add floods, war and increasing population .
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 01:41 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
My objection such laws is based on my dislike of totalitarian methods of governance
I think the modern democracies like France are a long way from totalitarian government, dont you ?


Between totalitarianism and absolute freedom (for entrepreneurs) there is a spectrum, and this law pushes France that much further towards the totalitarian end. This won't turn France into the USSR, but it will be a damned bureaucratic nuisance for small businesses. That much more red tape from which to disentangle oneself; yet another set of hoops to jump through. I believe in some social democratic programs and in a government's gentle management of the economy, but not in micromanagement like this.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 02:07 pm
@Kolyo,
Kolyo wrote:
This won't turn France into the USSR, but it will be a damned bureaucratic nuisance for small businesses.
I don't know why the decissions of freely elected lawmakers turns France to a UdSSR-style teetotalism.
I wonder why you point to "it will be a damned bureaucratic nuisance for small businesses". Perhaps, you see a 'small business' different to what it is thought of in France (and Europe)? I mean, most if not all French "grandes surfaces" with more than 400 m² sales area belong to one of the large chains of supermarkets. (The six largest chains of supermarkets run 90% of all grocery shops [!!!]in France. Additionally, you have about a dozen regional chains.)
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 02:18 pm
@Kolyo,
My experience with food rescue programs over a couple of decades is that there is very little to deal with of a bureaucratic nature. It's of course possible (likely) that it will be handled differently in other jurisdictions.

I will say I wouldn't want to try this in the US which seems to be a grand champion of more and more government involvement at every layer of things. In my industry, the Bush Jr years were brutal for creation of paperwork for anything we had to do in the US. The best I can say about the last 5/6 years was that at least no more bureaucracy was added.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 02:24 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
My experience with food rescue programs over a couple of decades is that there is very little to deal with of a bureaucratic nature. It's of course possible (likely) that it will be handled differently in other jurisdictions.
It is different in France: no-one knows, how the punishment of 70,000 Euros and two years prison will be done against who.

The major criticisn, however, is that these amendments cover only 5% of the annual food waste in France.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 09:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

It is different in France: no-one knows, how the punishment of 70,000 Euros and two years prison will be done against who.

The major criticisn, however, is that these amendments cover only 5% of the annual food waste in France.


Sounds to me like a lot of sound and fury (and state imposed punishment) for pathetically little.

If the state can assume to govern the specific behaviors of its citizens in areas such as this, and do so for such little effect, what then can it not do?

Freedom is better.
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 09:38 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Kolyo wrote:
This won't turn France into the USSR, but it will be a damned bureaucratic nuisance for small businesses.
I don't know why the decissions of freely elected lawmakers turns France to a UdSSR-style teetotalism.


Okay, I guess I'm not that knowledgeable about this particular law, so I'll defer to you and ehBeth on whether it's too intrusive into the companies affairs. (For one thing, I wasn't aware it only applied to supermarkets with sales areas above 400 m^2.)

However, it is certainly possible to have freely-elected lawmakers enact policies that allow government to pry into every aspect of people's lives. Just look up what Republican governors are doing to welfare recipients in America -- as just one example. (Excessive regulation is a step, however small it might seem, towards totalitarianism, which is just as much the case when right-wing parties are behind it.) Yet those governors were all freely-elected.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2015 11:22 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Freedom is better.
If the French don't like it, they will elect different representatives.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 04:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Perhaps you would know, Walt...is it restricted to a limited number of large cities ?
 

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