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Pandora...Eve...the cause of all human troubles.

 
 
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 02:49 pm
The similarity between the Genesis story of Adam and Eve and the “Fall of Man”…and the Greek mythological story of Pandora and the box she opened…ought not to be all that surprising.

The human predicament of trouble, illness, a mean life…and ultimately death has to be blamed on someone.

Why not a woman?

In fact, how better than blaming it on a woman?

In both cases, the gods warned the woman of dangerous, bad things…and in both cases the woman did not pay sufficient heed…and ended up causing all the trials, tribulations, and difficulties of life.

Damn…if only women had listened to the gods, we’d all be living in a paradise right now…

…right?

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Type: Discussion • Score: 3 • Views: 1,678 • Replies: 22
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 02:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Why would they listen to the gods? They sure never listened to men.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 03:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Adam could have said "No thanks!" to the forbidden fruit. He's to blame, too.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 04:59 pm
@wmwcjr,
Whaaat? You want him to alienate the only woman in the known universe?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 09:09 pm
I think I will back slowly out of the thread and then run like the dickens.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2015 09:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Let me ask you this Frank, how many of your problems didn't involve a woman?
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 01:24 am
Do you think if we were to sacrifice our women we could appease the gods?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 01:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The human predicament of trouble, illness, a mean life…and ultimately death has to be blamed on someone.

Why not a woman?

What is your theory on why women blame women for all that trouble? Self confidence problems maybe? I was never convinced that "women are the weaker sex" stuff did not come originally primarily from women. Hell, I cant say that I even know that women of today dont mostly believe it but are not allowed to say by the commucation dictates currently in place.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 04:47 am
Ummm...I am trying to show that humans have troubles...illness, disease, war, pestilence, famine, hunger, unfairness, and such...

...and religion wants to assign a reason for all of that.

So people apparently make up stories.

I notice that the stories that apparently were made up (that ended up being the Bible of the god of Abraham)...and the stories made up by the ancient Greeks...

...both wanted to blame all those ills and ails...

...on women...specifically on women defying (or not listening to) gods.

I suspect that is because the people making up most of those stories were men.

I do not think (it would be my guess) that any human CAUSED the conditions under which we humans live. I just find the myths that ancients made up to explain this unknown to be funny...especially the part about blaming women. I find it even funnier that modern humans stick to that absurd scenario...insofar as there are still people who blame the "human predicament" on one of these ancient absurd stories.

Let me be clear: In my opinion, women have almost always gotten the short end of the stick from men...and I am delighted that is finally becoming part of our ancient, dark past. More women involved in the functioning of society will be, in my opinion, a much better thing for humankind than male dominance.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 04:55 am
@Frank Apisa,
Hmmm Frank,

We moderns rely on mythology just as much as the ancients do. Of course we don't consider our "absurd stories" to be absurd nor do we consider them to be mythology.

Our culture is different than other cultures. Of course, looking from within our culture the other cultures seem "dark". There is no objective way to say our culture is any better or more advanced.

By criticizing the mythology other cultures as "ancient and dark" you are just saying that your culture is superior to theirs. I imagine if they were able to argue back it might be an interesting discussion.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In my opinion, women have almost always gotten the short end of the stick from men...and I am delighted that is finally becoming part of our ancient, dark past.


Frank, this is the part of your mythology that I would like to look into. What does "short end of the stick" mean? It seems that in many societies, the men did the dying while the women were protected, sheltered and fed. I don't know which end of this stick is the short one.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:40 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Hmmm Frank,

We moderns rely on mythology just as much as the ancients do.


Not all of us, Max.

I don't.



Quote:
Of course we don't consider our "absurd stories" to be absurd nor do we consider them to be mythology.


What we "consider" and what is...often differs.

Quote:
Our culture is different than other cultures. Of course, looking from within our culture the other cultures seem "dark". There is no objective way to say our culture is any better or more advanced.


Okay...I will modify my remarks in that regard to include..."in my opinion"...if I left it out.


Quote:
By criticizing the mythology other cultures as "ancient and dark" you are just saying that your culture is superior to theirs. I imagine if they were able to argue back it might be an interesting discussion.



I didn't. Read what I wrote.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 05:41 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
In my opinion, women have almost always gotten the short end of the stick from men...and I am delighted that is finally becoming part of our ancient, dark past.


Frank, this is the part of your mythology that I would like to look into.


Don't bother. I have no mythology for you to look into.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 06:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
Of course you have a mythology, Frank (as do I and as does everyone living within a culture). You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. When you said "women have almost always gotten the short end of the stick", it is a perfect example.

Let's look at your beliefs as they are apparent in your posts on this thread. These are my guesses, please correct me if any of these aren't actually what you believe.

1) You believe that men and woman should be equal (by a modern Western definition of the word equality).

2) You believe that men and women have never been equal (by a modern Western definition of the word equality).

3) You believe that our current ideas about equality are superior to the ideas held by past cultures (or by other contemporary cultures).

None of these beliefs are objective, and none are any universal logic. These are just things you choose to believe.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 06:09 am
There is another idea here to question.

You are making a comparison between Greek mythology and Hebrew mythology. You have two data points that you are drawing a conclusion from. These two cultures had pretty close contact with each other, it is not that surprising they have some similar cultural ideas.

If your thesis is that religions in general blame women for evil, you should come up with some better examples... perhaps ones that are from cultures that didn't share ideas. Do you have more examples?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 09:20 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Of course you have a mythology, Frank (as do I and as does everyone living within a culture). You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. When you said "women have almost always gotten the short end of the stick", it is a perfect example.


If you want to classify an opinion as a mythology...do so.

I do not...and I do not have a mythology. I do have opinions.


Quote:
Let's look at your beliefs...


I do not do "beliefs." If you want to talk about my opinions...we can do so.


Quote:
...as they are apparent in your posts on this thread. These are my guesses, please correct me if any of these aren't actually what you believe.


None are "beliefs." If they are not my opinions...I will let you know.

Please write anything you want to know about my opinions using the word opinions. I do not do "beliefs."


Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 09:24 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

There is another idea here to question.

You are making a comparison between Greek mythology and Hebrew mythology. You have two data points that you are drawing a conclusion from. These two cultures had pretty close contact with each other, it is not that surprising they have some similar cultural ideas.

If your thesis is that religions in general blame women for evil, you should come up with some better examples... perhaps ones that are from cultures that didn't share ideas. Do you have more examples?



I noted the similarity between the explanations for the ills of the world in the Greek mythology...and in the Abrahamic religion, Max.

I am not interested in doing a comparative religion course.

I will acknowledge that where I wrote, "and religion wants to assign a reason for all of that"...I should not have been so general. I was only referring to the Greek Mythology (so far as Pandora is concerned) and the story of Eve in the Bible.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 09:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
You are using the opinions to make a judgment about culture and to create a narrative about woman's role in society. I am not sure how what you are calling "opinions" differ from "beliefs".

Are you saying that there is no objective reason that you think women should be treated equally... and that the whole notion of woman's equality is just based on an opinion about how women should be treated?

I think that most individuals in modern western cultures (myself included) believe that women should be treated equally.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 10:19 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are using the opinions to make a judgment about culture and to create a narrative about woman's role in society. I am not sure how what you are calling "opinions" differ from "beliefs".


Neither am I...so if you want to know about my opinions...ask me about my opinions...and stop calling them "beliefs."

Quote:
Are you saying that there is no objective reason that you think women should be treated equally... and that the whole notion of woman's equality is just based on an opinion about how women should be treated?


What on Earth makes you think I think women should not be treated equally??? I was a male feminist before modern feminism became popular. Of course women are equal to men.

I just find it interesting that the religions I discussed seem to think women are to blame for the ills of the world. Frankly, I am mocking them for doing so.

Are you actually reading what I am writing, Max...or just winging it here?



Quote:

I think that most individuals in modern western cultures (myself included) believe that women should be treated equally.



I go a step further. I consider them equal. I do not think it something men should consider doing...they are equal to men. What is giving you the impression I am not of that opinion?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2015 11:01 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I go a step further. I consider them equal. I do not think it something men should consider doing...they are equal to men. What is giving you the impression I am not of that opinion?


This sounds like a belief to me.
 

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