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How do LaGrange Points work?

 
 
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 11:57 am
I understand LaGrange Point #1, because it makes sense to me that there is a place of neutral gravity between two objects (a point at which something is equally attracted by the two bodies).

However, I don't understand the other LaGrange points. How can the other LaGrange points also be neutral gravity areas?

http://www.space.com/images/040621lagrangian_points_03.gif

The explanation graphic above describes the laGrange Points, but it doesn't really explain what they are.

Thanks,
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 12:12 pm
Hmmm. Well, L5 and L4 are at the same distance as the moon. I would think their orbit depends on orbital speed, rather than any neutral gravity point. I know, that's an observation, not an answer.

Actually, rosborn, if I had wondered, I would have asked you.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 01:22 pm
roger wrote:
Hmmm. Well, L5 and L4 are at the same distance as the moon. I would think their orbit depends on orbital speed, rather than any neutral gravity point. I know, that's an observation, not an answer.

Actually, rosborn, if I had wondered, I would have asked you.


Haha, well Thanks Smile I was afraid of that Smile

My general knowledge of such things is pretty good, but there are specific instances where I am lacking in some details. I'm afraid this is one of them. I can probably look this up on the web and dig it out, but I thought it might make a good science discussion as another way to learn more about it.

Thx,
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 05:15 pm
A good question, unfortunately, I don't know that I'd understand the answer.
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neil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 07:37 pm
I'm also hazy on the details. I think the Sun's gravity also shifts the points significantly. I suspect the value of the L points has been much exaggerated by science fiction writers as the bodies are in motion so the L points also move as well as accelerate and decelerate. I suspect some station keeping energy would be necessary to stay in any of the L points long term. Neil
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 08:01 pm
Wasn't there an L5 Society out there somewhere?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 08:26 pm
And, where, just exactly are L1, L2, and L3?

I think interplanetary science has to work with lots of variable numbers. In order to put a satelite in orbit around Mars, or land a rover, it takes lots of knowledge about the movement of solar bodies. So, I'm thinking that maintaining a sructure at an L-point wouldn't be all that tough. But, I'm more of a sci-fi junkie than a physicist.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 08:31 pm
I believe L1 is at the balance point between the earth and the moon. I don't ever recall hearing of L2 & L3. I should have noticed the discrepancy, huh?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 08:36 pm
Quote:
An object at L1, L2, or L3 is meta-stable, like a ball sitting on top of a hill. A little push or bump and it starts moving away. A spacecraft at one of these points has to use frequent, small rocket firings or other means to remain in the area. Orbits around these points are called 'halo orbits'. The Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) is in a halo orbit around the Sun-Earth L1 position, about a million miles Sunward from Earth, and the Microwave Anisotropy Probe (MAP), is in a halo orbit around the Sun-Earth L2 Position, about a million miles in the opposite direction. These are the first spacecraft to be positioned in Lagrange orbits.

An object at L4 or L5 is truly stable, like a ball in a bowl: when gently pushed away, it orbits the Lagrange point without drifting farther and farther, and without the need of frequent rocket firings. The Sun's pull makes any object in the Earth-Moon L4 and L5 locations "orbit" the Lagrange point in an 89-day cycle. These regions could be ideal for the Space habitats devised by Gerard K. O'Neill in 1969. Each habitat could house tens of thousands of people. Lagrange points
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 08:39 pm
Actually, another, perhaps better site. I think L1, L2, and L3 are more interesting than L4 and L5.....

Quote:
The first three Lagrangian points are stable only in the plane perpendicular to the line between the two bodies. This can be seen most easily by considering the L1 point. A test mass displaced perpendicularly from the central line would feel a force pulling it back towards the equilibrium point. This is because the lateral components of the two masses' gravity would add to produce this force, whereas the components along the axis between them would balance out. However, if an object located at the L1 point drifted closer to one of the masses, the gravitational attraction it felt from that mass would be greater, and it would be pulled closer. (The pattern is very similar to that of tidal forces.)

The L1 and L2 points have some practical value since, although a satellite would wander away if left to itself, a relatively modest effort at station-keeping can prevent it from doing so.

By contrast, L4 and L5 are stable equilibria (cf attractor), provided the ratio of the masses M1/M2 is > 24.96. When a body at these points is perturbed, it moves away from the point, but the Coriolis force then acts, and bends the object's path into a stable, kidney bean-shaped orbit around the point (as seen in the rotating frame of reference). In the Sun-Jupiter system several thousand asteroids, collectively referred to as Trojan asteroids, are in such orbits. Other bodies can be found in the Sun-Saturn, Sun-Mars, Jupiter-Jovian satellite, and Saturn-Saturnian satellite systems. There are no known large bodies in the Sun-Earth system's Trojan points, but clouds of dust surrounding the L4 and L5 points were discovered in the 1950s. Clouds of dust, even fainter than the notoriously weak gegenschein, are also present in the L4 and L5 of the Earth-Moon system.

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/L/Lagrangian-point.htm
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 07:41 am


Thanks for the link K. The answer I was looking for is in there: "As seen in a frame of reference which rotates with the same period as the two co-orbiting bodies, the gravitational fields of two massive bodies combined with the centrifugal force are in balance at the Lagrangian points, allowing the third body to be stationary relative to the first two bodies."

The key is the centrifugal force. I thought that Lagrangian points were defined by gravity alone, but they are not. Gravity alone will define an L1 point because there must be a place between any two orbiting bodies in which the gravitational attraction between them is equal. However, gravity alone cannot define an L2 point, because both bodies are exerting force in the same direction (so there is no balance).

However, if centrifugal force is added to the system, then additional balance points result from the combination of gravity and centrifugal forces.

Thanks Smile
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 08:06 am
A good visual (with an explanation)...

http://www.physics.montana.edu/faculty/cornish/lagrange.gif

A contour plot of the effective potential.


In the above contour plot highs are colored yellow and lows are colored purple. We see that L4 and L5 correspond to hilltops and L1, L2 and L3 correspond to saddles (i.e. points where the potential is curving up in one direction and down in the other). This suggests that satellites placed at the Lagrange points will have a tendency to wander off (try sitting a marble on top of a watermelon or on top of a real saddle and you get the idea). A detailed analyis confirms our expectations for L1, L2 and L3, but not for L4 and L5. When a satellite parked at L4 or L5 starts to roll off the hill it picks up speed. At this point the Coriolis force comes into play - the same force that causes hurricanes to spin up on the earth - and sends the satellite into a stable orbit around the Lagrange point.
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