Debunking the Vietnam War - History of Vietnam & Ho Chi Minh

Thanks, timber.

I wish I still had a copy of Maj Rogers instructions to his scouts. That pretty well defined how and what to look for when trying to find out the facts. Anyone know a link??
Here is link to Rogers:
http://www.geocities.com/rogerscadetcompany/HistoryofRogersRangers.html

Several links for Roger's Rules...


http://www.75thrra.com/history/units-rogers-hist.htm

http://www.rogersrangers.org/rules/

http://www.wesclark.com/jw/rogers_r.html

http://www.military-info.com/freebies/roger.htm

http://www.benning.army.mil/RTB/RANGER/pam/rgrpham.htm#STANDING%20ORDERS%20--%20ROGERS%20RANGERS

STANDING ORDERS -- ROGERS RANGERS


1. Don't forget nothing.

2. Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.

3. When you're on the march, act the way you would if you was sneaking up on a deer. See the enemy first.

4. Tell the truth about what you see and what you do. There is an Army depending on us for correct information. You can lie all you please when you tell other folks about the Rangers, but don't ever lie to a Ranger or Officer.

5. Don't never take a chance you don't have to.

6. When we're on the march we march single file, far enough apart so one shot can't go through two men.

7. If we strike swamps, or soft ground, we spread out abreast, so its hard to track us.

8. When we march, we keep moving till dark so as to give the enemy the least chance at us.

9. When we camp, half the party stays awake while the other half sleeps.

10. If we take prisoners, we keep'em separate till we have had time to examine them, so they can't cook up a story between'em.

11. Don't ever march home the same way. Take a different route so you won't be ambushed.

12. No matter whether we travel in big parties or little ones, each party has to keep a scout 20 yards ahead, twenty yards on each flank and twenty yards in the rear, so the main body can't be surprised and wiped out.

13. Every night you'll be told where to meet if surrounded by a superior force.

14. Don't sit down to eat without posting sentries.

15. Don't sleep beyond dawn. Dawn's when the French and Indians attack.

16. Don't cross a river by a regular ford.

17. If somebody's trailing you, make a circle, come back onto your own tracks and ambush the folks that aim to ambush you.

18. Don't stand up when the enemy's coming against you. Kneel down, lie down, hide behind a tree.

19. Let the enemy come till he's almost close enough to touch. Then let him have it and jump out and finish him up with your hatchet.

Thanks BillW and CountZero,
Gads, that all brought back memories of what made me think of Rogers Rangers in the first place. Close to 40yrs ago I went through OCS -Officers Candidate School - at Ft Benning and part of the training was a short - about 2wks - training course the Rangers went through. Tough course, I recall getting about 4hrs sleep the whole first week. Thanks again for the links. All bookmarked.

Oh, Welcome to A2K CountZero. I know you're gonna like it here.

Great Links, CountZero ... glad to have you aboard.


There's good reason Roger's Rules have so well stood the test of time. I am amazed by humankind's ability to repeat the learning of a given lesson ... in The Ardennes Forest alone, how many epic, stunning, "Upset" battles have involved a supposition on the part of the less fortunate party of the relative challenges posed by the terrain which proved to be an overestimate through the past couple of millenia or so? The Military Mind in particular seems prone to precisely such surprise of missestimation in a bewildering array of circumstance.

Rogers Rules themselves comprise a nearly complete "Manual of Small Unit Offensive Tactics". Any of them translates to contemporary considerations unambiguously, and takes well to scaling. They and "The General Orders"" so familiar to any military individual work together well.



timber

I take it you were a Marine, timber. I actually joined the USMCR in Texarkana, Tx in 1960. BTW, the US Army had the exact same set of Gen Ords.

Semper Fi, Mac

BTW ... I took great comfort in and frequent advantage of Gen'l Ord 9. Hauling the Duty NCO out of the Guard Shack to "Listen for a noise .... I think I heard something over there ...." on a blustey, rainy miserable night was entertaining compensation for the tedium of the duty.

timber

Be careful of how far you go in diddling with Gunny.

Gunny rarely mounted Dog Watch Guard in any outfit I was in ... particularly once I was Gunny.

RHIP

timber

danon5

Thank you for thanking me for thanking you all for this thread! (Now, that's a mouth-full!)

I can understand why it's taken you 20 years to talk about Vietnam. The possibility of ANOTHER dubious war looming sort of brings these things to the surface, doesn't it?

It has taken me 20 years, too, to talk about my confused feelings about Vietnam. At the time I thought it was outrageous (I still do) & did my small bit in marching, protesting, etc. I KNEW we were being lied to & believe we are being led by the nose. I KNEW the war was wrong ...

BUT, but ... one thing I have had a lot of difficulty with is how (here in OZ, as in the US) we treated the conscripts & participants, those whose lives were so disrupted, even destroyed by the experience ... I have a feeling of great compassion, regret, sadness & anger about what happened to those of you who had to endure this nightmare. And have had to wear the consequences of it with so little support or understanding, You certainly didn't CAUSE it, yet you (& your families & loved ones)copped all the blame, the hostility ...

I don't have anything major or earth-shattering to say ... I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I'm so sorry that it has affected your lives, often in such devastating, maybe permanent ways. I'm sorry that you must have felt "invisible", as though your pain didn't count ... And that I admire your stance on the current looming (inevitable??) war. That you care so much that more young people's lives could be affected as yours' have.

I hope you don't feel I'm being presumptuous in saying these things. Many of these thoughts have been going around in my head for a long time & it's good to be able to say them here.

All the best to you,
Olga

Olga, You have said some very nice words and I have the feeling they are coming from your heart. Thats ok. In fact I feel it's a good thing.

Each soldier faced the conflict in his own personal way. I knew one who was afraid he would be killed on each mission, he flew high to the target area, did the job and flew high back to base. But, he flew. There was another who put a bold face on and blustered about bravely in a loud manner. He turned to putty after the first bullet hit his plane, I heard his cry over the company frequency and flew to his location, he blubbered like a baby as I looked his plane over, then flew with him back to base trying to tell him all was ok. He flew again too. Me, I was too dumb to be afraid I guess. I recall seeing tracers coming at me and thinking how pretty they were all arcing through the sky in those long sweeping trails, almost in slow motion until they got close, then really fast. And on returning home from missions I would fly circles around those little hill top artillery sites until I drew the fire of the VC hiding along the base - or halfway up most times. I don't know why, I felt I could give our guys a little heads up on the enemy locations that way. Never once entered my mind I could be killed, that happened about three years after I had returned home to the US. Woke up one night in a cold sweat and did that for about two months, then it went away.

Thanks for your input, I think sharing is good, both for you and for me.
Dan

While the end of WWII marked the end of fighting throughout to world, it did little to stop the march for independence by the Viet Minh in Vietnam. The French colonial position in Vietnam had been seriously discredited by the Japanese invasion, and with the Viet Minh presence the feelings of nationalism were very high over all of Vietnam. The French returned with inadequate forces to control the situation and never received enough men and equipment to do more than control the more heavily populated areas around Hanoi and Saigon. They were facing a well disciplined and battle hardened revolutionary army led by brilliant commanders who for almost ten years waged unrelenting guerrilla warfare. The French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu in May 1954. This came as a conference was being held in Geneva to determine the Korean issue and also as a footnote the issue of SE Asia. The Geneva Conference allowed Cambodia and Laos to become independent neutral states with Vietnam to be divided at the 17th parallel. The Viet Minh with Ho Chi Minh controlling the North part and a non-communist government controlling the South part. Ngo dinh Diem became the president of S Vietnam. The Geneva Conf had made provisions for a National election involving both the N and S parts to take place in 1956. This did not happen because the two sides would not trust each other to conduct a fair election. LOL
For years after 1945, the US had done nothing. It was only after China became involved in support of the Viet Minh at the conclusion of the Korean conflict that the US began to help the French cause, but it was too little, too late. Most of the fighting had occurred during Pres Truman's term with the Korean War '50 - '53 taking American attention from SE Asia. In '53 Pres Eisenhower took office - communism seemed everywhere - Sen McCarthy was engaged in his witch hunts and along with the reconstruction of Europe and Japan was predominant in the US news of the day. About all Eisenhower did for SE Asia during the first two years was to give aid to France during the last few months of their fight after China began supporting the Viet Minh and observe the happenings from a distance, not even taking an active role in the Geneva Conf decisions. Finally, in May 1955, Washington decided to support the Diem regime in S Vietnam. Pres Diem was not the vibrant forward looking leader that Vietnam needed at the time. The communist north was doing everything it could to cause trouble in the south. In Oct 1957 terrorists bombed the US Information Service Library and an American barracks in Siagon injuring 13 American soldiers. By the end of 1960 Diem had achieved not only the disfavor of his own people but also that of the US while at the same time the north was gaining power. Pres Kennedy took office beginning 1961.
More later.

Danon:

That's a great summary. All the information we have come up with here seems to support the idea that Ho was a patriot, and his main emphasis was to get rid of the French. In the Return the Draft Interaction by AU1929, a poster named Asherman had an entirely different version of how all this came about. I'm going to order the book on Ho over the internet. Hopefully, I'll get it fairly quick. Helen has also sent me another book on Vietnam that should be here soon. Things are speeding up well! We're going to start getting somewhere!!

I'm very happy!

Anon

danon, timber, anon - all you guys/ladies who found yourself there...a sincere tip of my hat in respect.

Thanks blatham, as one draftee's point of view, what choice did we have. I, at the time, decided that if I was going, I would try to do it on my own terms. I actually joined the day before my draftee induction date, reasoning that it would give me a better chance to make my choices once in. Little did I know that at the time we were all cannon fodder and it made no difference. Anyway, 1st day before swearing in we all filled out the requisite paperwork. I chose to become an officer and a pilot and they signed it. Less than a year later I was a brand new butterbar lieutenant heading for flightschool. The Army was in a hurry.
Next year as a newby officer/pilot (there was no Aviation Branch of Service in those days) I landed in the Philippines for Jungle Survival training. That training consisted of camping out in the jungle for a week with no food. The morning of the third day after the negritos had shown us 'how to survive' we were told to go out and forage for food - then return to the campsite before dark. Well, I, having grown up in a wooded area, felt at home in the jungle and knowing my approximate location during the 10+ mile walk to the campsite, decided to walk myself to the road - catch the bus - and have lunch at the O'club. Having done that, I returned to the campsite before dark. They didn't say to NOT DO THAT!! It was fun. On the way to the road I did meet up with lots of jungle animals and reptiles - black panther included - and me with only a survival knife!!
So you see blatham, it was fun too.

I enlisted ... in'63. Family traditon and all ... son of a son of a son of sort of thing. The War snuck up on me. In May of '65, I found myself transported not exactly as if by magic from the deserts of Southern California to the verdant jungles and ancient cities of SE Asia. It soon became quite clear to me I was not the only one dazed, confused, and bewildered by the change. Surprises became commonplace.

Anon ... danon and Asherman are both admirable historians (as is Setanta), but given to differing perspective. Variances in their respective recountings neither validate nor invalidate one another, they illustrate the complexity of, and the uncertainty and confusion which still surround, the matter. WHAT was done is matter of record ... WHY a thing was done, and what the consequences and entailments may or may not have been, are yet matters of academic dissention. One of the frustrations of History is that it must cool a bit before being served. A couple of generations or so is often not time enough for the dish to set properly.

blatham, thank You for an excellent thread. You throw a helluva party.

danon ... survival knife and panthers ... hehehe ...I heard a story, possibly apocrophal, of "A fellow in a different outfit", a LRP (a particularly capable sort of folk by nature), who decided to go out in the bush to try to see if the rumors of tigers in the area were true. He took a camera, and typical personal armament. A couple of days later, he presented himself at the guard shack, battered, tattered, and missing a bit of gear. He had with him his K-Bar, 2 ears the size of dinner plates, and a four-foot-long tail, all of tiger, all visibly fresh. All he would say of his adventure was "There ARE tigers in Viet Nam."



timber

Timber:

Asherman's version of history included facts like Ho Chi Minh didn't get back to Vietnam until 1946, that he was not a war hero, and that he spent his time in Russia, not China. His facts were horribly incorrect, and I don't consider that perspective, I consider it uninformed.

Anon

Aww, anon, what the heck does a couple of years mean?? He was close enough for government work. He he he, lol :-D

Gotta add an edit ---------- At the time of the conflict, I thought of the VC as jungle experts, sort of invisible ghost like entities. Well, it seems they were more like us GI's, they were mostly drafted from city and urban areas and hated the jungle as much as we did. Now that's funny!!

timber, I knew bout the tigers. Too bad though, they are now VERY scarce.

Here's one you'll like: My CO asked me to give a little class on gasmasks at a weekly officers meeting. I did, and a good one. At the conclusion the CO asked if anyone had a question. One of the CPT's sorta leaned over and let the biggest, loudest fart you ever heard. I quickly yelled 'GAS!' and everyone donned their mask except for the culprit. He, after a whiff, quickly donned his too!!

Anon