Debunking the Vietnam War - History of Vietnam & Ho Chi Minh

*My ex whom I haven't seen for..oh..about 28 years, is now
dying of alcoholism, so my oldest daughter tells me.....she is
the only one my 3 daughters who cares whether he lives or
dies -he was an army grunt in Vietnam during 1968 & around
there. Came back to a country that spit in his face when HE
thought he was doing something patriotic at the time he
"enlisted", if you can believe that, someone really was dumb
enough to enlist, even though he didn't have to go. When he
returned nothing ever cured him of THAT experience. I think
that by the time he went... things were a little out of control
over there....people were being killed en masse, just because
there was the possibility that they were helping the Vietcong.
The people of Vietnam had lived with war for so long & by so
many different countries, that by the time WE got there, who
could blame them for helping both sides. They were just trying
to survive. When his insanity began to threaten the safety of
myself and my 3 daughters - I had no choice but to get away
and get divorced. He tried to kill ME for divorcing him. So we
moved far, far away....from PA to Florida. Never went back
and never regretted it or thought once, that I had made the
wrong decision.
*I finally read a few books about the Vietnam War, & could
come to understand what happened to this young man & why
he was never the same - why he sought solace in alcohol &
drugs - instead of getting some honest mental health help -
Which was sorely needed, but not given to the american boys
who did return alive.
*The whole idea of a "war" where there are imaginary STOP
boundaries which the armed forces can not pass in order to
achieve their goals, or ANY goals -as, I think of it, it kind of
reminds me of the mess we are embroiled in now - isn't a war,
it's just an exercise in somebody getting rich off the armaments manufacturers, and that would probably be for supplying to
BOTH sides Everyone knows war is good
for the economy. It is an exercise in futility, death, greed,
ignorance and ZERO gain for US - the american people.
OUR MONEY IS BEING SPENT IN WAYS MOST OF US WOULD
DISAGREE WITH IF WE WERE TOLD WHAT IS BEING SPENT
ON WHAT....on this stupidity and ignorance, rather than on
better education, better health care for older americans.
Why must we save the Bush family royal ass, just because
they have heavily vested interest $$$$ in what goes on in
the middle east???????
*There are a bunch of idiots who want to kill each other over
there, let them. I just happen to disagree about OUR TAX
MONEY being spent on this? We were all led to believe that
there were certain people totally responsible for the events
of 9-11, yet everyone is still waiting for EVEN ONE DEFINITIVE
PIECE OF PROOF that the scenario Bush paints is even true.
Could it be a ploy to make the American people willing to
wage an expensive war costing billions$$$$? What else
could have moved the American people so profoundly as an
attack on our country. Same way that we entered WWII, as
I recall.
*The armed forces such as we have today - isn't at all what
we had available during WWII. There were MEN there, not
just little boys, who had barely graduated from high school.
Who comprises the majority of our armed forces today?
Ours is an armed forces made up primarily of a certain "class"
of society. Not kids who are smart - or have money enough
to get into college and get an education. Our armed forces
today do not even remotely resemble a cross section of the
american people as a whole.
*The very idea of an implication of a return to the draft at
this point would see me out on every street, in every high
school I could get to - trying to explain to these children
that they must get out of this country - any way possible!!
I have no trust for, or in our country anymore. Call me a
fool - or a paranoid idiot - but I have seen too much, and
my GUT tells me that everything about the Bush admin.,from
the illegal way he won the presidency to the current events
of the day - is too predictable, too coincidental and just plain
wrong.
*I'm no history buff, so like many others, I will follow along
to see what I can learn from this interesting conversation.

Has any one ever noticed that countries colonized by the French do not do very well after they become independent, Haiti, Moracco, the Middle East, Viet Nam?

Though under Japanese Occupation for much of the war, Viet Nam had pretty much liberated itself from the Japanese by the end of WWII. The Japanese retained no effective civilian administrative control, and no Japanese Military Units in the country were capable of conducting operations. Following the end of The War To Establish The Right Of Self Government, Viet Nam was handed back to the French. The locals were not happy about that development.



timber

Babs:

There were thousands of Vets who came back to this abuse. Abuse from their country, it's citizens, and the government that was happy to spend their youth, their innocence, their bodies, and their futures.

I've done bouts with drug use and alcohol. I was only able to beat my demons with the help of the woman who loved me and stood by me through it all ... my wife.

This support was unavailable to so many of our homecoming Viet Vets. Their families could not understand the daily torture they continued to experience!

Now I find yet another administration ready to do to same thing altogether, for greed, oil, and wealth. That is, wealth for the already wealthy who have invested in this administration to wage war and incur profits. I've watched this nation being switched from a peacetime to a wartime economy over the past two years. It's nauseating, we had come so far! Now we HAVE TO WAGE WAR to "bring back the economy". Our economy is now based on our ability to wage war and continue to wage war! The consistent and continuing attack and conquering of other nations for their resources and their wealth. We are being led down the same virulent path ... right now ... as we were in Vietnam.

That's why I would like to tear the Vietnam war apart, and see what truly led to our involement there, just like we are doing now.

Perhaps we find the same guilty people!!

Anon

The history of U.S. invlvement in Asia, and the middle east, reminds us that "The United States has no permanent allies, only permanent interests". This is something to think about when trying to figure out why.

Timber:

Ho Chi Minh's Vietminh was quite successful. We never realized how determined they were.

I have been so bitter about Vietnam, and what it cost me, that I have never been able to really talk about it.

This has a very therapeutic feel for me. Kind of a cleansing.

I hope everyone gets as much as I do out of this discussion!

Anon

Booman!!

A very astute observation. Welcome to the discourse, nice to see you!

Booman brings a thought to mind. Has anyone ever noticed how our friends become our enemies, become our friends, become our enemies ???

It's all in the timing!! I remember reading that Stalin was the 1940 Time Magazine "Man of the Year"!!

Anon

Joanne:

I've never followed the trail of the French Imperialistic conquests, and what happened to them. It would be interesting to see just what part that played in the overall picture!

Anon

Joanne

When you look at some British colonies, the Belgian and Dutch colonies, the Italian colonies ... ...

BTW: why did you mention explicite 'Maroc'?

Anon, I have some pretty strong feelings about the Viet Nam War, and I admit that among them are bitterness and a sense of betrayal.

A century of colonial mismanagement preceded our involvement, as discussed in some of the earlier links to articles, and our obsession with The Domino Theory blinded us to the real ongoing socio-political developments that precluded any possibility of "Victory" on our part. We got caught in a fight we didn't start, couldn't win, and didn't want. Once one has the tiger's tail firmly in hand, one is confronted with an entirely new set of problems.

I didn't want to be there, but I had little choice in the matter, and other folks around me depended on me to do my job, just as I depended on them. I wish our Nation had shown us similar regard.

Exploring the history that led to the US debacle may help folks see the futility of the exercize, and perhaps begin to understand what it was like for us who were there. I hope so.



timber

Timber:

You and I will have a lot to talk about this summer. Do you think we can tempt Fishin' to show up??

Anon

The French Legacy

The US were always taking someone's legacy, since they started colonizing relatively late.

Might be of some interest re. France, to have a look at Charles de Gaulle:
"France's Attitude Toward US Policy in Vietnam, 1964":

From: modern history sourcebook

The following source could be of some interest as well (going a little further back than the previous):

Vietnamese Declaration of Independence, 1945

Walter!!

Hello dear friend!!

Nice of you to drop in!

Thanks to both you and Joanne for dropping in some links. I'll read them before I crash. Really happy to see you Walter!!

Anon

Thank you for the welcome, Anon.
Still here .. Still reading ...
Very interesting indeed.

Timber...on the note in your last post that you hope others who weren't in Viet Nam might strive to understand the experiences of those who were there...

I think we are likely about the same age (but I'm surely handsomer). As a Canadian, the draft and the war applied to me only as an observer. But a school chum of mine with dual citizenship enlisted, and during/after the war I had many friends up here in Vancouver who had dodged, served and gone AWOL, or who completed service. Neither I nor any (certainly, not many) of our large circle of friends made a moral distinction between these three groups. Neither, actually, did these Americans amongst themselves - anyone who was belligerently opinionated in either direction found themselves not fitting in nor welcome.

Which is not to say that the whole lot of us wouldn't have polled overwhelmingly anti-war, because we were. But I think that here in Canada, we hadn't been driven into that horrid oppositional stance which evolved within your culture. It is with no small dismay that I see evidence of similar tendencies now. I do not believe (as some posting here might) that this is an inevitable consequence of a bell curve where some folks are brave and others cowardly, or some are hard-nosed and pragmatic while others are flighty idealists - those are the sorts of terms and notions which define and forward the opposition, but they aren't the source of it.

Still reading too. I feel like giving all you guys a big hug. And, I don't say that very often.

littlek

Speaking for all the guys, I can say that we'd accept the proffered hug, though in our case, we do say that very often.

<grin>

Ok, now, can you all come to Mcat's little party? No? How about a virtual one then?