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Dark Matter is in dimension X?

 
 
fishin
 
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Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2003 08:12 pm
sozobe wrote:
So "edge" is one of those "yes but" things -- just because they are bound by English to say "edge" doesn't mean they think there's an actual EDGE. If that makes any sense.


That was the point I was trying to get to when I first got into that discussion but I don't think I was able to get that far. It isn't like the universe is in a balloon where you pop through some sort of fabric and suddenly are on the outside looking in...
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2003 08:15 pm
littlek; so sorry but i can't help myself,

i like to think
and the sooner the better
of cosmic jello
swirling chunks of pineapple
seedless grapes
bits of mandrin oranges
radiating prismatic colors
cherry pits of ebon holes
nothingness of pectin
black is matter but none the matter
its only the result of leaving the latter
too long in the fridge.
was once in a mold
but was banged from its hold
now it sits on a plate
all a quiver.
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quinn1
 
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Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2003 08:16 pm
Or like in painting....you dont draw/paint/make an outline of everything...its just there, it exists in itself without that.
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fishin
 
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Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2003 08:18 pm
mmm.. cosmic jello.... Very Happy

Everybody likes jello!
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littlek
 
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Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2003 09:28 pm
I like that analogy quinn!
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littlek
 
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Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2003 10:54 pm
I hope Sozobe comes back soon, the suspense....

I'll see y'all around the boards tomorrow.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 12:46 pm
Hi there, sorry to keep you in suspense --

I showed him your questions when he got home, and he said "yes" to the first (mass shown because of decay patterns) but then did a deer-in-headlights "ack how do I explain this I'll come back to it" thing for for the rest. I sent him the questions in an email today and will post his response if he gets to it. (I reminded him of his talk next week and he agreed that this is really helpful to get thinking in layperson's terms.)
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quinn1
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 01:00 pm
Wonderful that we are helping him at the same time, thats great!

Will wait patiently for the laymans info he would pass along to us, and thinking, poor guy..this could take a bit.
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littlek
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 06:43 pm
Thanks Soz, and send a thanks to E.G. for me too!

<decay patterns, ok, I get that... sorta>
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fishin
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 07:38 pm
It must have been the whole black sock thing that threw him for a loop. He's probably studying furiously trying to incorporate several thousand tons of cotton and rayon into the equations. I bet ya Soz's 'puter is puffing out little clouds of smoke and it works away recalculting the differential equations.. lmao
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littlek
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 07:41 pm
... and the dryer is planning it's revenge. I wonder what the dryer gets out of it.
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quinn1
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 09:36 pm
it eats...what do you think the dryer gets out of it?

I bet that thinking on that ....

we can figure out about dark matter, I mean, if you eat, you must well...you know...expell dark matter

<giggles>
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BillW
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 09:49 pm
littlek, I heard your dryer was getting ready to have a secret meeting with your vacuum cleaner and hair dryer after you went to sleep tonight. Be very, very careful!
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littlek
 
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Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2003 10:11 pm
Oh! Is that why all the left-over matter is dark?

BW - <listening to the stairs beyond the back door> .....Ya think?


Heehee, I hope Soz gets some answers for us before we devolope too many more of our own.

Did I thank Soz yet, how about another thanks!
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littlek
 
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Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2003 07:39 pm
Another Q, SOz! Please? Maybe a more straight forward one. Is all dark matter presumed to be in the form of black holes? Is all DM is presumed to be at the centers of galaxies?
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sozobe
 
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Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2003 09:32 pm
E.G. Speaks
OK, here we go:

First, E.G.'s take (which has been sitting in my inbox for a few hours now, sorry):

Quote:
Everyone knows about electrons --- negatively charged atomic particles that orbit nuclei. Electrons are light, about 1000 times lighter than protons or neutrons. They are also stable, which means they last forever. There are two heavier cousins of the electron, the mu and the tau leptons, which are produced at accelerators and decay in a fraction of a second.

Correspondingly, there are electron, muon, and tauon neutrinos. Each flavor is distinguished by how it is created or destroyed --- the interaction of an electron neutrino can turn it into an electron, and so on. Unless something special happens, a neutrino of a given flavor would stay the same flavor as it travels along. However, neutrino experiments have shown that, for example, a beam of electron neutrinos can turn into a mixed beam of electron and muon neutrinos. This can only be understood with quantum mechanics.

This means that a neutrino of a given flavor does not have a definite mass. Rather, it is a superposition of a neutrino with definite mass m1 and another with definite mass m2 (and thus neither state has a definite flavor). Imagine a stopwatch with two second hands, one which runs slightly faster than the other, say 59 seconds to go around. When both hands are aligned, we have an electron neutrino. As the hands progress, one will fall farther and farther behind the other until it points in exactly the opposite direction of the other. At that instant, we have a muon neutrino. And so on.

How fast the hands go around the face depends on the neutrino masses, but the only thing we can measure is the relative directions of the two hands, which depends on the difference of the neutrino masses. If the neutrino masses were equal, then there would be no observable effects and the original electron neutrino would remain one. From other observations, we know that the neutrino masses are about one billion times smaller than the proton mass. Neutrino oscillation experiments tell us that the differences of masses are even smaller.

Dark matter being Kaluza-Klein excitations due to extra dimensions, and
observed by annihilations into neutrinos. Could be. Who knows?

-E.G.


Uh. I'll work on him, and see about translating this a bit further. Very Happy

Meanwhile, dark matter ain't necessarily dark -- the "dark" has more to do with "unknown" than "lack of light". Neutrinos may well be dark matter ("dark matter" is basically just "the matter that must exist according to the Standard Model but we can't seem to find anywhere"), and they are everyplace, much like light but even more impervious to obstacles. They zip through most anything.
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quinn1
 
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Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2003 09:39 pm
Could be. Who knows?

I liked that the best. Wink

thanks for posting, it certainly brought to light some info on the dark matter, at least in a background idea of sorts and certainly is a good starting point or definative base to have to go forward with.

His input is greatly appreciated <and was amazingly nontechnical and perfectly understandable>....share with him our great appreciation of his efforts.
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littlek
 
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Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2003 09:43 pm
Soz, that is a bit more than lay-person physics. The whole second hand thing with relative positions but no knowledge of speed of movement thing... so, they can get snap-shots of the positioning of the electrons, but can't watch or record the movements between the stills? I think I remember reading about that before.

Dark Matter isn't necessarily dark. Hnh. From what I've read Neutrinos wouldn't be able to make up the mass needed to support the Standard Model. But, maybe with it's different flavors it could. Interesting.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2003 09:49 pm
Actually, littlek, that's quite right. I just ran my above post past E.G. What I said is basically right, but lacking some subtleties -- first, it's not so much about the Standard Model as the observable gravitational effects -- there's SOMETHING out there with mass, making things bend in certain ways, etc., but what? It's called Dark Matter until they figure it out.

Neutrinos are likely to be at least part of it, but he thinks (unscientific gut feeling) that some particle we don't even know about yet will turn out to make up a lot of it. Black holes could be part of it too -- not to rule them out entirely -- but the "black hole"/ "dark matter" terminology is suggestive of a relationship/ kinship where there isn't any, necessarily.
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quinn1
 
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Reply Wed 8 Jan, 2003 09:56 pm
I hate to ask him a question but, if you could pass by him <at some point>...what does he think of tachions and their possible ability to calculate into this equasion?
I only ask cuz when I was learning and discovering this stuff, way back when, there seemed to be more of an influence of possibility here with regard to their faster than light thingy...what was that? I forget...but, you see my point as they have not been brought up here so far.
Anyway..just a passing thought.
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