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Relativity of morality

 
 
johnny55
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Philosopher Massimo Pigliucci, host of the podcast, Rationally Speaking, has some ideas on this which I will try to summarize. He says that moral reasoning is similar to, though not exactly the same as, mathematical reasoning. Both depend on the premises that you start with.

For example, if your premise is that the ultimate moral value is to cause more happiness for more people, or to fulfill people's preferences, as opposed to causing more unhappiness, then Utilitarianism is probably going to seem very reasonable to you. If, on the other hand, your basic value is to respect individual rights and autonomy above everything else, then Objectivism is going to suit you. If your value is to obey the commandments in the bible, or the laws of the land, or otherwise follow what you conceive of as a god's or a government's instructions, then you would probably adopt Deontology for your moral framework. If you value character development and cultivation of personal excellence, then you would likely prefer Virtue Ethics above the other moral philosophies.

If the scope of your moral concern is your immediate or extended family or a close-knit group, then you may reason that you should treat those around you well, and let others fend for themselves. Some may choose to extend the "circle of moral concern" (see Peter Singer) to other races, nations, and even to animals.

The reason there is no one, single "best" moral philosophy is because we all start with different premises, and those premises are based on our value systems. There is no logical proof that one value system is superior to another. Values are givens - they are the axioms and premises of morality. Sometimes we choose our values, but frequently we simply have them, just as we have tastes and preferences for different music or food - they precede and trump any sort of logical justification.

Ethics is really, then, a form of applied logic. You can start with different premises to come up with completely self-consistent, coherent, moral frameworks, none of which is superior to the other but offer different solutions to the "moral problem", and none of them refutable on purely theoretical grounds. We can easily see that different branches of geometry are not superior or inferior to one another, but reach different conclusions because they start with different axioms. We can see that one type of geometry may be far more useful and applicable in the real world in which we find ourselves than another, and some forms may have no practical use at all. The same is true of moral systems. Although we may not be able to apriori judge one superior to another, some are very probably far more able to be successfully applied to human and social environments than others.

Regarding "objective morality" - the existence of moral standards independent of humans and their moral preferences as opposed to purely relativistic morality - I think that is a false dichotomy. I reject it for the same reasons that I would reject an argument in favor of a one, "true" geometry. The choice of a geometry or of moral system all depends on the starting premises. Euclidan, Hyberbolic, Riemann, and other geometry systems are all "true", but each starts with different axioms. The same idea applies to moral systems. They are "true" in the sense that they each follow logically from their founding premises - given their starting points, they are internally consistent, coherent, and well-defined. In ethics and morality, there probably is no fundamental value or axiom that is clearly superior to the others. There certainly are, and have been, unworkable, low quality premises, such as "murder and mayhem is a core value", or "exterminating all undesirable people is virtuous". There are, and have been, some people and nations that held these values. But values such as these are incapable of serving as the foundation of a coherent, sustainable moral system. In those unbalanced moral systems, the value that works for you today can be turned against you tomorrow (you may wake up one day and find yourself to be an "undesirable"). Core values such as these lead to degenerate and failed moral systems, full of contradictions, are self-limiting, and which cannot allow the people who practice them to even survive for the long term (Nazism, anarchy, and vicious and bloodthirsty regimes in some less developed countries, for example). Likewise, one could (and this has happened before) devise geometric axioms that are mathematical dead ends incapable of producing a useful geometry, or are incapable of application in the real world of human concerns.

There are many internally coherent moral/ethical systems that don't suffer from internal contradictions and which serve the goals which are embedded in the premises that underlie them. However, moral systems have to be anchored to the factual aspects of human nature, and the nature of society. If they are not, then they are entirely abstract and irrelevant to human interests. They become the equivalent of a mathematical model which has no application in reality. You can do math in that system, but you can't do physics with it. Ethics, as an applied discipline, has to deal with human beings and human culture, not with abstract notions. This requirement reduces the set of viable ethical systems down substantially, but still leaves room for a large variety of very diverse approaches. There are a number of alternatives that are perhaps equally reasonable and perhaps equally defensible. But those alternatives are not infinite in number - they don't represent the entire set of logical alternatives. They are tethered to the actual realities of what it means to be a human being living in a human social environment. If we were birds, or wolves, or any other type of being we wouldn't even be having this conversation, or if we could converse about this, our radically different natures would cause us to adopt a very different type of ethical system.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 09:29 pm
@johnny55,
Quote:
He says that moral reasoning is similar to, though not exactly the same as, mathematical reasoning...The same idea applies to moral systems. They are "true" in the sense that they each follow logically from their founding premises - given their starting points, they are internally consistent, coherent, and well-defined.


"I distrust systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is the will to untruth." (Fred Nietzsche--paraphrasing from memory, but I'm sure that's pretty close to what he said).

Is that just the premise for a different "system?" Maybe. Maybe not.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 04:49 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
How about you address the point ! Can you do that or can't you Fresco ? Since when citing references boils down to explanation or demonstration ? Have you lost it completely ?


It's incidental, Al, but I happen to agree with your suggestion about Fresco here. I haven't been at this site long, but I have already seen him bring his (vague) agenda to unrelated threads.

Furthermore, he has demonstrated a pronounced tendency to adopt a smug, condescending attitude, all while completely avoiding any substantive argument.

As I have told him directly, he strikes me as a name-dropping pseudo-intellectual poseur with an inconsistent thought pattern. I have also seen others suggest the same.

One could hope that such feedback might induce him to engage in some self-analysis, but that's far from likely. I won't pretend that I'm making these comments for his sake (i.e., for "his own good"). I'm just tossing my two bits worth in here because I find his type to be annoying.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 06:42 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
... you ought to make it in the proper threads where the issue was raised instead of making a go around going en passant on the matter in threads that barely can relate with it.


As Abe Maslow once said: “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.”

The only "tool" Fresco seems to have is some sort of very nebulous and malleable "theory of epistemology," some part of which he thinks he has seen some authority advocate. Hence, for him, every issue, every question, etc., is a question of epistemology.

But, in his case, it seems he's just trying to drive nails (which aren't even nails) with the rounded end of a ballpeen hammer. He acts as though the name of the particular authority whose name he happens to be dropping at the time is the universally acknowledged ultimate expert on the question. Good luck with that.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2015 05:40 pm
@InkRune,
InkRune wrote:

For this discussion I'm going to use the term Relativity of Morality to define the thought that each individual creates his/her/other morality.


Quote:
Postulate 1
If morality is relative, then anyone can believe anything.


It is , morality is relative , but :

Morality is also based on the survival on Humanity , in the bigger Universe picture .

Which means , that morality fundamentally , should be based on our , Humanities , survival .


JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2015 10:10 am
@johnny55,
Johnny55. thank you for a considerable effort on our behalf, a very helpful survey of possibilities. I can add only one other basis for ethical action and that is the spontaneous emotion/motivation of compassion based on empathy.
Thanks again.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2015 05:22 pm
@InkRune,
InkRune wrote:
Postulate 1
If morality is relative, then anyone can believe anything.
I'll stop here because your exegesis is flawed at the outset.
You have yet to define morality.
Is it the application of standards, or the application of principles?
If standards, then standards in themselves represent absolutes and cannot be relative.
If principles, then standards are implied.
Take a simply stated principle, a social contract, if you will.
"You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10:27).
The standards derived from it should be self evident That they are not is no fault of the principle, rather an indictment of those claiming to implement it.

Of course, the rub is that everyone wants a perfect world, but not everyone wishes to accept principles.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jun, 2015 11:23 pm
@north,

I retiterate

InkRune wrote:

For this discussion I'm going to use the term Relativity of Morality to define the thought that each individual creates his/her/other morality.


Quote:
Postulate 1
If morality is relative, then anyone can believe anything.


It is , morality is relative , but :

Morality is also based on the survival on Humanity , in the bigger Universe picture .

Which means , that morality fundamentally , should be based on our , Humanities , survival .

[/quote]
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 06:57 am
@north,
Quote:
Which means , that morality fundamentally , should be based on our , Humanities , survival .


Why?

Humans are pretty insignificant. We are one species of primate that has been around for just 10 millenia or so, on a little pebble orbiting one of the billions of smallish stars in the galaxy.

There is nothing in the Universe (outside of humans themselves) that cares at all about the survival of humans. When humans are extinct, it will be an event of almost zero significance.

How can you build a system of morality around that?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 07:13 am
Hominids have been around for millions of years. Homo sapiens have been around for 100,000 to 200,000 years, Mr. Science. Agriculture is ten millennia old.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 07:43 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Hominids have been around for millions of years. Homo sapiens have been around for 100,000 to 200,000 years, Mr. Science. Agriculture is ten millennia old


So what?

"Millions of years" isn't that significant. It is less than a tenth of a percent of the existence of the insignificant little speck orbiting a smallish example of one of the billions of yellow stars near the edge of our galaxy.

There is nothing special or significant or important about humans (outside of our own false sense of importance). There is certainly nothing to build a system of morality around.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 11:32 am
@maxdancona,
Boy are you sounding important right now...
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 02:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I am important to everyone who matters (relatively speaking of course).
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 05:59 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Humans are pretty insignificant....


Tell that to the rest of the ecosystem.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 06:04 pm
@FBM,
If every human on Earth disappeared, do you think the ecosystem would mind?

(And, given that our ecosystem exists wholly on a tiny speck orbiting an unimportant little star, one of billions of stars in just our galaxy... who cares what the ecosystem thinks anyway).
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 06:22 pm
@maxdancona,
I imagine the ecosystem would rejoice.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 06:25 pm
@maxdancona,
You are (as always) so clueless. Every species has a morality which equates their survival and reproductive opportunity with good. If a lion drags off your child, you may decry it, but it is perfectly moral for the lion and her offspring. You have got to be one of the thickest people who has ever belabored this site . . . Mr. Science.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2015 06:50 pm
@Setanta,
(I suppose you think personal attacks are perfectly moral... so ok).

Just to clarify your argument (please correct me if I am wrong). You are saying that everything that lions do naturally constitutes morality for lions.

If this is your argument, there is an obvious problem with it. What humans do naturally includes killing, and slavery and a bunch of other mean nasty things that you and I (as modern 21st century Americans) would consider quite immoral. If human nature isn't considered moral... I don't see why lion nature would be any different.

If this isn't your argument, then please explain your argument better.


Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2015 04:30 am
@maxdancona,
I have not touted myself as any kind of moral paragon at all, so you can drop that phony-baloney line of crap. You may suppose what you like. I said nothing about "natural." I explained my argument well. I cannot be held responsible for you inability to understand what i have clearly and plainly written. Every species has a morality which equates their survival and reproductive opportunity with good. If you think that equates with supporting slavery, i can only comment that you would probably would have been comfortable as a secessionist in South Carolina in 1861. As far as i am concerned, morality is not something which i consider either admirable or honest. People, people such as you, for example, impose on the term morality to support whatever they desire with moral rectitude.

Learn to read, Mr. Science.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2015 06:49 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Every species has a morality which equates their survival and reproductive opportunity with good


There is a basic contradiction here. You are conflating evolved behavioral traits with morality.

Human behavior has developed over a long time through a process of evolution. This is no different than your lion example (or the behavior of any animal species). There are any number of examples of animal behavior that you and I would find quite troubling in our modern human societies; animals fight wars, kill each other over resources, use violence to maintain a dominant position of power in a social group, But so do humans.

If you are making the case that the natural behavior of animal species, as developed through natural selection, constitutes "morality", then in the same way the natural behavior of humans also constitutes "morality".

Of course, the natural behavior of humans includes many things that would trouble you... humans fight wars, humans grab resources and use violence, humans are prejudiced based on ethnicity, humans accept cruelty to people of certain ethnicities.

All of these traits of animals, including humans, are evolved natural behavior based on survival value and reproductive opportunity.

What I consider morality involves rising above our evolved traits.


 

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