Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 06:06 pm
Quote:
BillRM said: Off hand I would think that rail guns on the moon would be primarily used to placed materials in near earth/moon space for building projects not for moving humans off the moon into space where the G forces on the cargo does not matter and the rail can be very short.
As Robert Heinlein pointed out in his novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" you better be nice to whoever would control rail guns on the moon as they have what amount to the power of small nuclear bombs that could target anyplace on earth.

1- Yes Clarke talks about rail gunning stuff off the moon into moon or earth orbit but I'm not sure I follow him. What stuff needs to be shot off the moon?
2- Clarke also says firing nukes from the moon at the earth would be no threat because they'd be spotted on radar coming in from thousands of miles away and be shot down by SAMs launched from earth.
I'm not sure I buy that because meteors often come in undetected, so if they can sneak in, so can nukes.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 06:47 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
What stuff needs to be shot off the moon?


Any of the elements/ores that we could find on the moon that could be used to build structures in space and if there are water in the bottom of craters at the moon polars that mean not only water but O2 and H2 that could be gotten by breaking apart the water using solar cells. There likely to be iron available on the moon in the form of iron asteroids hits

Quote:
Clarke also says firing nukes from the moon at the earth would be no threat because they'd be spotted on radar coming in from thousands of miles away and be shot down by SAMs launched from earth.


Missiles are one thing thirty/forty plus tons rocks that would hit with the kinetic energy of a small nuclear weapon at 25,000 mph is another thing. Such rocks would be a great deal harder to deal with then knocking out a missiles as you would need to vaporized them to stop them from doing harm.

The following is from the moon is a harsh mistress and the math is right as I remember checking it many years ago and Heinlein have an engineering background also.

Quote:
Mike had computed what would happen if a freighter grossing 100 tonnes (or same mass of rock) falls to Terra, unbraked.
Kinetic energy as it hits is 6.25 x 10 12 joules—over six trillion joules.
This converts in split second to heat. Explosion, big one!
Should have been obvious. Look at Luna: What you see? Thousands on thousands of craters—places where Somebody got playful throwing rocks.
Wyoh said, “Joules don’t mean much to me. How does that compare with H-bombs?”
“Uh—” I started to round off in head. Mike’s “head” works faster; he answered, “The concussion of a hundred-tonne mass on Terra approaches the yield of a two-kilotonne atomic bomb.”
“‘Kilo’ is a thousand,” Wyoh murmured, “and ‘mega’ is a million— Why, that’s only one fifty-thousandth as much as a hundred-megatonne bomb. Wasn’t that the size Sovunion used?”
“Wyoh, honey,” I said gently, “that’s not how it works. Turn it around. A two-kilotonne yield is equivalent to exploding two million kilograms of trinitrotoluol . . . and a kilo of TNT is quite an explosion— Ask any drillman. Two million kilos will wipe out good-sized town. Check, Mike?”
“Yes, Man. But, Wyoh my only female friend, there is another aspect. Multi-megatonne fusion bombs are inefficient. The explosion takes place in too small a space; most of it is wasted. While a hundred-megatonne bomb is rated as having fifty thousand times the yield of a two-kilotonne bomb, its destructive effect is only about thirteen hundred times as great as that of a two-kilotonne explosion.”
“But it seems to me that thirteen hundred times is still quite a lot—if they are going to use bombs on us that much bigger.”
“True, Wyoh my female friend . . . but Luna has many rocks.”
“Oh. Yes, so we have.”
roger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 06:55 pm
@BillRM,
I loved that book, but more for the sociological theorizing.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 06:57 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Clarke also says firing nukes from the moon at the earth would be no threat because they'd be spotted on radar coming in from thousands of miles away and be shot down by SAMs launched from earth.


Come to think about it also missiles from the moon should have a lot more delta v available to dodge any interceptor missiles coming up from the surface of the earth.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 07:00 pm
@roger,
Quote:
I loved that book, but more for the sociological theorizing


Same here but I also like the fact that Heinlein get his engineering facts right also.

Speaking of a great science fiction book with solid engineering the Clark book the "The Fall of Moondust" where the engineering challenge was to rescue a tour bus under a few hundred meters of moon dust on the moon before they died of heat or lack of O2.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 03:04 am
@BillRM,
The Lagrange points with reference to the earth and the moon are no farther from the surface of the earth that the orbital path of the moon (with the exception of L2).

http://www.labspaces.net/pictures/blog/4cd8b1c15732e1289269697_blog.jpg

With a terminus in geosynchronous orbit above the earth's surface, the terminus in orbit and on the surface will always be in motion relative to the Lagrange points. I don't need this idiot Bill to explain that to me. However, he obviously has not given this any thought at all--he just dismisses the idea of a space elevator, and therefore does not think about the operation of such a system. The cable, by the way, would extend from the orbital terminus to the earth's equator, but would not actually touch the planetary terminus--it wouldn't need to.

There are four crucial times when it would reduce strain on the cable to be aligned with a Lagrange point: when a payload is being boosted off the earth or is arriving at the planetary terminus and when a payload is being dropped from the orbital terminus or is arriving there. It would be a simple matter of scheduling to have the cable aligned to a Lagrange point at those critical junctures, and that would reduce the strain on the cable. In a three-body relationship (earth, moon, payload), the L4 and L5 points represent points at which gravitational equilibrium can be attained. Boosting a load or decelerating a load when the cable is aligned with an imaginary line running from earth to those Lagrange points would enjoy a material gravitational benefit. Studying a contour map of the gravitational potential contours of a three-body system makes this clear.

I suspect that all Bill's limited imagination has presented to him is some massive metallic "rope" for an elevator cable, so he dismisses the idea and gives it no further thought. Just because Bill cannot imagine something is not evidence that it isn't so.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 04:38 am
@Setanta,
Yes sure if you say so........however the moon and therefore the L3/L4 points is not even in Earth's equatorial plane like most planets satellities.

The moon and the earth are more like a duel planet system in that regard but nice drawing of the moon L points even if meaningless in regard to a space elevator from earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon

The moon G forces would have some small effect on a space elevator but it would be a tiny secondary factor at most and have once more nothing at all to do with the Earth/moon L points.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 05:10 am
@BillRM,
Translation: You don't understand how the system would work, so you just dismiss it based on an idiotic assumption of how the cable would be built. I seriously doubt that you even know what the gravitational contour map between the earth and moon looks like.

I suggest that you investigate that, as well as carbon nano-tube fiber.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 05:15 am
@Setanta,
Below is a fairly nice article on Lagrangian points and what they are and what they are not.

By carefully reading it, you to can find other errors and misunderstandings that Mr. Setanta happen to have concerning L points.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 05:41 am
@Setanta,
Footnote L1 and L2 points might indeed by useful in a moon base space elevator even if L3 and L4 is not useful in an earth space elevator.

But why should we run the risk of confusing Setanta even more by bringing that up? Drunk
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 05:45 am
@BillRM,
If there is any confusion here, it's yours. L1 and L2 and L3 would all definitely not provide a useful alignment for an earth based space elevator. The useful alignments for that project would be L4 and L5.

That emoticon is appropriate to you, because the f*cked-up English and lack of knowledge and logic in your posts is reminiscent of speaking to a drunk. Personally, i don't take strong drink.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 06:02 am
@Setanta,
Can you read?

No L points are useful for an earth base space elevator however L1 and L2 might be useful for a moon base elevator.

Oh carbon nano tubes material is strong enough to be the cables for a moon space elevator if not an earth base elevator assuming we can manufacture it into thousand miles long thick cables from where we are now of a few inches long and a nanometer in width.



Quote:


http://io9.com/5984371/why-well-probably-never-build-a-space-elevator

To better understand this particular challenge, I contacted Keith Henson, a technologist and engineer who has written about space colonies and related space engineering subjects for nearly four decades. In 1975, he co-founded the L5 Society, now known as the National Space Society. Henson, despite his enthusiasm for space colonization, is skeptical that a space elevator will ever get off the ground.

Why we'll probably never build a space elevator

"No current material exists with sufficiently high tensile strength and sufficiently low density out of which we could construct the cable," he told me. "There's nothing in sight that's strong enough to do it — not even carbon nanotubes."

Indeed, this is the handy piece of evidence that's conveniently touted as the wonder-material that will make space elevators a reality. No doubt, these structures are the strongest and stiffest materials yet discovered in terms of tensile strength and elasticity — a strength that results from the covalent sp2 bonds formed between the individual carbon atoms.

"The best that theorists can do right now is come up with a material that's about two-thirds the strength needed to make a practical elevator," Henson told me. "And that's a very, very short tiny tube."

The problem, says Henson, is that when the carbon bonds get loaded to such an extreme extent, the hexagonal bonds that exist in carbon nanotubes become unstable when converting to 5-to-7 member bonds."

"It's not unlike a run in a lady's stocking," he says.

Henson worries that the cable, when exposed to such a tremendous strain, will simply unzip. Based on some preliminary models, the strain on the tether could exceed 100,000 kN/(kg/m) — so the material will have to have an extraordinarily large tensile strength/density ratio. Even with nanotechnology, he argues, it may not be possible to build material that's strong enough for the job. "It's not immediately obvious what can be done about this," he added.

"The bond strengths are known and you have a very limited number of bond strengths you can use around carbon," he says. "You can go outside of carbon and use boron nitride — it doesn't save you anything in weight — but it would conceivably be more resistant to this unzipping thing." He notes that no one has made nanotubes out of boron nitride.

"So, while it may be theoretically possible to get the material, it still looks pretty unlikely owing to the strengths of the bonds involved... the strength just seems inadequate."
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 06:35 am
Another interesting fact from Clarke's book is that the speed of the moon's axial rotation is only 10 mph at its equator, so if you jogged faster than that in the direction the sun had just set, you'd make the sun rise again.
And at higher latitudes where the rotation speed is much less, you wouldn't even have to jog, you could bring the sun back up just by walking.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 11:51 am
@BillRM,
apparently you and the NSA team that reported on the construction feasibility and location of an elevator--disagree.
They say its feasible, and some impregnated Cnanotube matrix that swells toward its center I entirely feasible and strong enough.

Also, as far as any "Orion" type project (using nuke rockets) , its been listed as "feasible but impractical" because the Safety concerns had been enumerated in a "Mort" analysis and the numbers crunched out to a probable number of radiation deaths (on earth)of between 3 and 10 PER LAUNCH due to the fallout from the H3 gas . Sorta like hitting a death lottery
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 11:56 am
@BillRM,
PS, Henson is one of a few skeptics on the subject of "space elevators". There are many others who agree that its indeed feasible and practical.
lL MY ARGument was based upon is that NUKE ROCKETS will probably never leave the planet (although they could be quite the ticket for interplanetary drives), or for getting out of the solar system at 0.5 (c)
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 01:14 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
of between 3 and 10 PER LAUNCH due to the fallout from the H3 gas . Sorta like hitting a death lottery


Assuming those numbers are correct the question is so what as there are almost nothing we do that is not a so call death lottery.

Every time we breath the air near a non-nuclear power plant we are entering into a death lottery.

Every time we start our cars to go shopping or to work we are cheerfully entering into a so call death lottery where in the US alone we have well over thirty thousands winners every year and two plane load of passengers and crews just won the death lottery in the news.

Every large engineering project have in it the calculation of how many workers will die building whatever it happen to be.

You are not likely to see any bigger engineering project then the space elevator so how many hundreds of deaths do you think will occur? The Hoover dam a small fraction of a space elevator project cost over fifty workers with the first and last workers being father and son.

How many hundreds of thousands of deaths is likely to occur if the elevator fail after being build?

Nuclear rockets would give us the freedom and access to the whole solar system so the the cost benefit seem one hell of on the side of the rockets death lottery or no death lottery.

Farmer man I can just see you and people with your view of life trying to stop the bringing into the caves fires as the death lottery calculations would mean the tribe is going to be losing .3 member per fire every year.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 02:16 pm
While i was looking around online the other day, i ran across an article about a Japanese firm that says the can build elevator cars which till take you to geosynchronous orbit in seven and a half days. Apart from seeming like a rather long time, what most impressed me is that the provided almost nothing in the way of explanations of how a space elevator would be built. I guess they just wanted to get their name near the top of a list of space elevator boosters.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 02:56 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
can build elevator cars which till take you to geosynchronous orbit in seven and a half days. Apart from seeming like a rather long time,


The trip is 24,000 miles and you have cars traveling along/up a cable so let assume you can somehow drive a capsule at two hundreds miles an hour that would be 120 hours or five days.

Off hand that seven days seems in the ball park for a first generation vehicle running up a 24,000 miles cable.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 03:53 pm
@BillRM,
your logic Is, as usual, full of it.
"Bringing fire into caves" was not an industry that we knowingly did to bring negative health effects, nuclear energy is. We understand its effects and can do something about it rather than blindly moving ahead just because it makes your pee- pee hard to see rockets blue glare.

Would you hve avoided doing anything about other safety concerns with other areas of travel or work (like FIX the damned DC-10s so they quit falling out of the skies in the mid 80's, or FIX safety issues that force recalls in autos? or FIX paint so it doesn't contain lead so that, in the narrow event some kid chews on a windowsill he wont grow up mentally stunted? or wouldn't you FIX mine safety issues by requiring pressure ceiling stoping and screw mining machines?)
Im sorry but I just cannot buy your apparent indifference to doing things as safely as we can.(That was a real problem I had with many of the nuke engineers I worked with at several National Labs). They never took their own H&S scientists and physicians seriously. Youre not an H&S specialist so you have NO credibility in etermining these "safety trde offs" That a fools game. I listen to all my HS guys no matter how PITA they sound. Our insurance also has a say in it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 04:04 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

How many hundreds of thousands of deaths is likely to occur if the elevator fail after being build?
PS, your "flip floppery" did not go unnoticed.
 

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