gollum
 
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 06:24 pm
In Iraq, how does ISIS know who are Sunni and who are Shiite?
 
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 06:43 pm
@gollum,
It says so on the back of their sweaters.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 07:03 pm
@gollum,
They bought a program. Need one?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 03:56 am
The majority of the population are Shi'ites. The Sunnis traditionally come from certain areas--specifically Al Anbar, which is about the western third of Iraq, bordering Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. That "province" is not densely populated, and Sunnis are distinctly a minority in the nation as a whole. Tikrit, which the ISIS has captured, is a small Sunni pocket as well, and the birthplace of Saddam Hussein, whose name was Saddam Hussein Al-Tikriti. Very many members of his government were from his tribe in Tikrit, and the ISIS' drive to capture it is very suggestive. The ISIS has taken over most of Al Anbar and has taken Tikrit. What that suggests is that the ISIS has a good many "veterans" of Hussein's government and army among them.

Apart from that, it's probably a safe bet for them that members of the armed forces whom they capture are Shi'ite. Slaughtering so many of them will probably come back to haunt them. Government forces are not likely to surrender now if they get in a tight spot, and it means the Persian forces who have come to their aid (they are Shi'ite) are likely to be particularly savage in their treatment of the ISIS. I can't possibly know the eventual outcome, but i'd say they've bitten off more thnn they can chew (the ISIS) and announcing that they also intend to take over Jordan is not going to get them any friends in the region. Slaughtering Shi'ites out of hand was sending an engraved invitation to Iran for them to intervene. Iran is the largest Shi'ite nation in the world, with a total population three times that of Iraq.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 03:41 pm
The rule of thumb is: shoot them all and let Allah sort 'em out.
0 Replies
 
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 04:04 am
@Setanta,
Setanta-
Thanks very much.

The reason for my question, is that I read an article that the ISIS captured a certain Iraqi army base. The ISIS then allowed the Sunni soldiers to change into civilian clothes and go home, while executing the Shiite soldiers.

So I wondered how they distinguished the Sunni soldiers from the Iraqi ones.

Also though I was aware that Saddam Hussein and his supporters were Sunni, I thought Saddam was secular and that Sunni was more like his "tribe" than his religion. While ISIS appears to be religiously motivated to bring about a civil war for Allah.
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:20 am
@gollum,
A brief interview would reveal whether an individual were Sunni or Shi'ite. Like almost all governments in the Arab world, Saddam's government was based on his tribe, the al-Bu Nasir tribe, which dominated the Sunni tribes in the region of Tikrit. His uncle was the de facto ruler of the tribe when he was a boy, and he looked to his uncle as he would a father. His uncle betrothed him to his first wife when he was five years old. The girl was seven, and the purpose of the marriage to was to strengthen his uncles authority within the tribe. The al-Assads of Syria are also leaders of a tribally-based, minority government. The authority of the Saidi royal family is based on the Ibn-Saud clan, and support that they received from the Wahhab clan, with whom they intermarried in the 17th century. In the 18th century, a Wahhabi theologian began the ultra-conservative Wahhabi movement which created a strong Sunni fundamentalist sect. Osama bin-Laden was a Wahhabist Sunni. Muammar Gaddafi was the leader of a Libyan tribe which succeeded in erecting a minority government in the 1969 coup.

Everyone in the world is tribal to one extent or another--the Arabs are just more forthright about it. Pan-Arabism began in Egypt in the 1890s. but tribal loyalties have always proven stronger and more durable. The Muslim Brotherhood is an offshoot of Pan-Arabism, which was raised to the level of an intellectual movement early in the 20th century by a Lebanese gentleman whose name i do not recall. (Do a search for pan-arabism and the Muslim Brotherhood.) At that time, all Arab nations were under European domination or the domination of the Osmanli Turks. Many movements arose from the pan-arabism movement, the more successful ones being based on associations of military officers--these were usually called "young officer" or "free officer" movements, and those were successful throughout the Arab world in creating nationalist solidarity in opposition to the Europeans or the Turks. But they almost invariably fragmented when independent Arab nations were created after the First World War. One offshoot of the young officers or free offices movements in Syria and Iraq was the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party. Saddam Hussein rose to power within the ranks of Ba'ath Party in Iraq.

But tribalism always asserts itself. Hussein actually was a modern type of Arab ruler, and his government was superficially secular. He institutied something close to the ideal of Arab socialism, and at one point was so successful at developing Iraq economically that people came from all over the Arab world looking for work, and even from as far afield as Yugoslavia. But Hussein always appointed members of the al-Bu Nasir tribe to important positions of responsibility in the government or the armed forces. As is the common custom Arab tribes, people from Tikrit would have been named al-Tikriti, as was Hussein, so he abolished locational surnames by decree, so that it wasn't so obvious. Otherwise, the surname of every important figure in government and the military would have been seen to be al-Takriti.

Hussein's secularism was only cosmetic. His first loyalty, and that of his closest supporters was the tribe. Second was loyalty to other Sunni Arabs. The Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party came a distant third, and that only because Tikritis were in all the positions of responsibility. His development schemes in the 1980s began to unravel as a result of corruption, which was a product of the cronyism which determined how contracts were awarded and to whom. This problem is common in such tribally-based governments, and not just in he Arab world. Most nations outside the industrial world are ruled by a dominant clan or tribe, who look after their own, and to hell with everyone else. Hussein might institute a national education program and make some progress in modernizing Iraq, but the focus was always on enriching and aggrandizing the al-Bu Nasir tribe, and particularly the clans in the region of Tikrit. This, of course, eventually leads to resentment of the regime, and then violent opposition, if the other tribes, or the other ethnic and religious groups see the opportunity.

The Turks weren't the most effective colonial power in the 19th century, but they understood the Muslim world. They never tried to unite Mosul (Kurds, of several different flavors of religion), Anbar and Baghdad (Sunni Arab tribes, of a certain degree of sophistication) and Basra (Shi'ites, mostly peasants on the land or as unskilled labor, and the swamp Arabs of southern Iraq, about whose religion no one was ever certain, probably including themselves). Iraq is an abortion of a nation, and it was created by Winston Churchill under the aegis of Arthur Balfour in an attempt to get the oil for Britain. When push comes to shove, Tikritis are gonna look after themselves and one another and to hell with everyone else.

As i say, the behavior of ISIS suggests to me that even if they are not actually controlled by former Tikriti cronies of Hussein, those people are a powerful force in the organization. I personal think it's Anbar and Tikriti Sunni Arabs exploiting deluded would-be jihadists in a bid to take back Iraq and "re-erect" their politocal power which they lost with the downfall of Saddam Hussein.

(This text may be riddled with typos and small errors, but i don't really have the time to carefully edit it._
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 05:28 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta-
Thank you. You are very knowledgeable.

The article that resulted in my question said:

"Most of those captured were air force cadets, the employee said. Those who were Sunnis were given civilian clothes and sent home; the Shiites were marched and trucked off to the grounds of Saddam Hussein’s old palace in Tikrit, where they reportedly were executed. He added that the bodies had been dumped in the Tigris River, which runs by the palace compound."

I guess since it was near Tikrit (Saddam's hometown) they knew who was who.
0 Replies
 
Buttermilk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2014 08:42 pm
@gollum,
I'm sure distinctions could be made by knowing who follows what particular aspect of Islamic Jurisprudence.
0 Replies
 
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 05:16 pm
@gollum,
Q. How can ISIS tell whether a person is a Sunni or a Shiite? - Bonnie Lee Morken from Hamptom, Va.

Whether a person is a Shiite or a Sunni Muslim in Iraq can now be, quite literally, a matter of life and death.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

As the militant group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, has seized vast territories in western and northern Iraq, there have been frequent accounts of fighters’ capturing groups of people and releasing the Sunnis while the Shiites are singled out for execution.

But how can ISIS tell whether a person is a Sunni or a Shiite? From accounts of people who survived encounters with the militants, it seems they often ask a list of questions. Here are some of them:

What is your name?

A quick look at an Iraqi’s national identity card or passport can be a signal. Shiites believe that the leadership of Islam was passed down through the Prophet Muhammad’s son-in-law Ali and his sons Hussain (or Hussein), Hassan and Abbas, among others. While some Sunnis and members of other Islamic groups may also have those names, ISIS would most likely associate them with the Shiites.

Where do you live?

In every city and province, even majority Sunni ones, there are enclaves that are known to be Shiite. People who said they came from one of those neighborhoods would most likely be killed.

How do you pray?

Shiites and Sunnis offer prayers in slightly different ways, with Sunnis generally folding their hands or crossing their arms in front of their stomachs and Shiites leaving them extended, palms resting on their thighs.

In a chilling video that appeared to have been made more than a year ago in the Anbar Province of Iraq, ISIS fighters stopped three truck drivers in the desert and asked them whether they were Sunnis or Shiites. All three claimed to be Sunni. Then the questions got harder. They were asked how they performed each of the prayers: morning, midday and evening. The truck drivers disagreed on their methods, and all were shot.

What kind of music do you listen to?

Recordings of religious songs could also be a tipoff. Similarly, even the ringtone on a person’s telephone could be a clue because it might be from a Sunni or Shiite religious song.

There are other clues, but none are completely reliable. For instance, a number of Shiites wear large rings, often with semiprecious stones. But so do some Sunnis, and others.

Generally, Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis are often indistinguishable in appearance. That is even more evident in many families and tribes in which there has been intermarriage for generations.

Given that the rigid views of ISIS are fairly well known, it is perhaps natural to wonder why hostages do not simply lie about their origins. It seems that many do, yet in very tense, perilous encounters, people can easily get tripped up. Sometimes another person in a group might inadvertently give someone away. Others refuse to lie about their faith.

- Alissa J. Rubin, former chief of the Baghdad and Kabul Bureaus, currently Paris Bureau chief reporting in Iraq. Follow her on Twitter @Alissanyt.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 06:01 pm
You just got to know somewhere in Iraq are two Imams discussing Lutherans and Roman Catholics and wondering how two groups worshiping the same G*d and having such a dispute over Transubstantiation.

Christians have a large history of killing each other. Including Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Reducing the middle east into a "vigorous" religious debate ignores the effect of the Western Powers and big oil. A lot of this **** is purely over money. And its birth was 150 years ago and its authors lived in Europe and the US.

With all the Christian symbols and rhetoric and creationists in the school curricula, the RW shooting of Jews and Muslems, whats to say it won't happen here? It isn't as if this nation isn't packing.
0 Replies
 
 

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