farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2014 04:09 pm
@luismtzzz,
something interesting or not. This topic was played TO DEATH in 2005 onward. There was a heated discussion RE: ID, is it "science or religion" (That thread was initiated during the time that a lawsuit was moving forward in PA court). Here is an A2K thread that covers the subject exhaustively.
http://able2know.org/topic/50511-1
worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 12:41 pm
@farmerman,
thanks for the low-down on it. I think I will just take your word for it.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 03:35 pm
@luismtzzz,
@ problems with you responses: they are very simplistic (and in small points incorrect) and you seem to want your cake and eat it too; there is no god of hope or other wise.
Next:
Homosapien-sapien, as did all life, evovled from a "common ancester". Also, while natural selection plays a part in evolution it is Random Mutation that drives evolution; without mutation there would be nothing to select.

And as for life on this planet, the earliest life on Earth existed at least 3.5 billion years ago, during the Eoarchean Era when sufficient crust had solidified following the molten Hadean Eon. The earliest physical evidence for life on Earth is biogenic graphite in 3.7 billion-year-old metasedimentary rocks discovered in Western Greenland and microbial mat fossils found in 3.48 billion-year-old sandstone discovered in Western Australia using a mass spectrometer which identified what appears to be, on the basis of biogenic carbon isotopes, evidence of early life, found in rocks from Akilia Island, near Isua, Greenland, dating to 3.85 billion years old.
luismtzzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 03:49 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
@ problems with you responses: they are very simplistic (and in small points incorrect) and you seem to want your cake and eat it too; there is no god of hope or other wise.


Simplistic because i am trying to explain something complex to someone who is not obviously informed about evolution basic principles. And on a lenguage that is not my mother tounge.

Hence i belive in science is completely correct, i stated that i reserve the concepts of god as something personal. And for me, science and my belifs in god work well in harmony.

.......................................

All the rest of your post is completely correct. There are now trees that are older than the age creationist think the world has. It is hilarious.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 04:16 pm
@luismtzzz,
that's the way it goes around here. I used to be a big fan of the "isua First" hypothesis(Ive got a number of posts in which I recited stuff about this rock belt Its all. because of C12/C13 ratios of the ISua being highly positive. (and everybody understood that C12 was where life is at) BUT, lately we have better understandings of the isotopic preferences in the enzyme driven carboxylization by CO2 fixing autotrophs. Were not so sure (or, as a couple of geochemists say "we better be damned sure that this is unique or well have moved life back a billion or two."
Underlying the carbon bearing seds of the upper Isua are Banded Iron Formations. (Everybody was so eager to jump on the "Hey we found life" wagon that no one said "Wait a minute, whats a banded iron formation doing UNDER this supposed life layer?"
(BIFs are only formed one of 2 ways and one is from excess oxygen that derives from photosynthetic respiration. The other way is related to marine hydrothermal deposits that define the greenstone belts beneath the isua BIFs)
Paleo analysis is like a murder investigation.

0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 04:26 pm
@luismtzzz,
I understand now that english is not your first language; thank you.
I dont quite undersatnd how anyone can reconcile god whith religion. I have come to know, with a very fine degree of certainty, that god can not co-exist with a universe that has our physics. One simply cancels the other out.
luismtzzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2014 05:25 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
I dont quite undersatnd how anyone can reconcile god whith religion. I have come to know, with a very fine degree of certainty, that god can not co-exist with a universe that has our physics. One simply cancels the other out.


I will try to explain how it can be reconciled.It can´t be done if you take the espriptures literaly. They were writen by men for men. With laws and commands appropiate for human civilization of 2000 years ago. Rules stablished by the bible can´t be applied today.

Don´t work on the sabbath. Don´t use cloths made of two threads. Don´t plant two different crops together. You may sell your oldest daughter. Lapidate your slave if he works on Sunday.

Those are all nonsense. Religion as an institute is nonsense. Priests are humans and make errors like humans. You can not grant divine moral and ethic and properties to simple mortals.

God can not work with science in such enviroment.

Antropologic studies had demostrated how the belif in a superior being is kind of implied in human nature. What seems important are the belifs, not the religion. Religions give morals, and hope, and strenght to many people. No one can deny it. It has the power to convince a cancer patient to fight for his life, but also to convince a fundamentalist to detonate a bomb. It is mingled internaly with our hopes and dreams.

What is the difference between the god of a German Lutheran, and the god, or gods of a Samoan? Technically none. Both religions teach to love their peers, to act rightfully in pro of their communities, to be brave against death.

We are programmed to belive in something. And it mingles with our espirituality.

Buddhists do not have a god. But they teach the same values of love, community, good behavior, toelrance.

Men are who corrupt those belif and in pursuit of their own benefit destroy the good part of religion.

God as an espirituality concept. Not as a all knowing all creating all powerfull beeing. That is how gos antopologicaly relates to all human cultures.

Einstein wrote:

Quote:
. . . I came—though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents—to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression. Mistrust of every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude toward the convictions that were alive in any specific social environment—an attitude that has never again left me, even though, later on, it has been tempered by a better insight into the causal connections. It is quite clear to me that the religious paradise of youth, which was thus lost, was a first attempt to free myself from the chains of the 'merely personal,' from an existence dominated by wishes, hopes, and primitive feelings. Out yonder there was this huge world, which exists independently of us human beings and which stands before us like a great, eternal riddle, at least partially accessible to our inspection and thinking. The contemplation of this world beckoned as a liberation, and I soon noticed that many a man whom I had learned to esteem and to admire had found inner freedom and security in its pursuit. The mental grasp of this extra-personal world within the frame of our capabilities presented itself to my mind, half consciously, half unconsciously, as a supreme goal. Similarly motivated men of the present and of the past, as well as the insights they had achieved, were the friends who could not be lost. The road to this paradise was not as comfortable and alluring as the road to the religious paradise; but it has shown itself reliable, and I have never regretted having chosen it. Einstein, Albert (1979). Autobiographical Notes. Chicago: Open Court Publishing Company, pp. 3-5.


There is something special in science that makes it so appealing. There is a marvelous universe out there, so huge, so beutiful, so breathtaking, more than anything else our imagination can handle. Truths that reveal more question. An endless race to know it all. There is some kind of spiritual fullfillment on the pursuit of knowledge.

If you want to hear some fantasy i want to add: this universe was not made by chance, neither by a clockmaker. But the universe has finely tunned mathematical rules that are both amazing and frightening. There must be something out there, something waiting for us to unveil. We are the offspring of this rules, an accident and a logical outcome. The universe understanding itself (quoting Carl Sagan). But we are limited by our own fears, our own pre programmed systems. If there is really a god, it can be only found by seeking the true knowledge, on the irrefutable laws of nature. Don´t expect him to be a white bearded man sitting on a cloud, sending his only son to us. We are not that important.

Quote:
In the ancient days, when the first quiver of speech came to my lips, I ascended the holy mountain and spoke unto God, saying, "Master, I am thy slave. Thy hidden will is my law and I shall obey thee for ever more."

But God made no answer, and like a mighty tempest passed away.

And after a thousand years I ascended the holy mountain and again spoke unto God, saying, "Creator, I am thy creation. Out of clay hast thou fashioned me and to thee I owe mine all."

And God made no answer, but like a thousand swift wings passed away.

And after a thousand years I climbed the holy mountain and spoke unto God again, saying, "Father, I am thy son. In pity and love thou hast given me birth, and through love and worship I shall inherit thy kingdom."

And God made no answer, and like the mist that veils the distant hills he passed away.

And after a thousand years I climbed the sacred mountain and again spoke unto God, saying, "My God, my aim and my fulfilment; I am thy yesterday and thou art my tomorrow. I am thy root in the earth and thou art my flower in the sky, and together we grow before the face of the sun."

Then God leaned over me, and in my ears whispered words of sweetness, and even as the sea that enfoldeth a brook that runneth down to her, he enfolded me.

And when I descended to the valleys and the plains, God was there also.
Kahlil Gibran - God
worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 07:57 am
@luismtzzz,
Disculpe Luis,

Dios es el creador de todo! No hay otro Dios ni se puede estar por los dos lados. Tienes que aceptar la palabara de Dios o rechazarla.

Yo le invite de aceptar la palabra de Dios y vivir para siempre! Eso es lo que deberia hacer!

Dios le ama mucho y quiere que useted este con El para siempre; sin embargo, es su opcion!~ Aceptelo hoy por favor!

Con todo el amor de Dios,

WT
luismtzzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 01:47 pm
@worldtraveler24,
Worldtraveler.

Tiene usted buen manejo del español , me supongo que se trata de un hispano parlante nativo. Si no es así de verdad felicito su calidad para la escritura de mi idioma.

Yo entiendo la palabra de dios, no soy ajeno a los preceptos religiosos, y entiendo todo concepto de pecado, salvación y redención. Fui adoctrinado desde niño en la fe católica apostólica romana y le aseguro que se de memoria muchos de las costumbres, letanías, salmos, rituales de la eucaristía de mi religión.

Esta equivocado al creer que no acepto a dios. Ya he tenido esta discusión innumerables veces con gente de rígidos conceptos religiosos.

Amo a dios, mi fe es fuerte, y mi dedicación al bien de los demás es constante. El estar descuerdo con la ciencia no modifica en nada mis creencias por que mi espiritualidad y intelectualidad trabajan de forma separada. Un universo de 13.798±0.037 billones de años es mas maravilloso sorprendente y real que cualquier historia de un libro escrito por hombres. Pues los hombres erran, se corrompen, y mienten. Pero las leyes naturales no lo hacen. Son universales e intemporales.

No creo en los hombres y sus imágenes, en sus monumentos y rituales. Creo en dios todopoderoso quien nos hará salvos. Quien da esperanza y fuerza y valor y coraje. Que nos da la puerta a la vida eterna después de la muerte.

Polvo somos y en polvo nos convertiremos. Señor WT24, somos polvo de estrellas, y en eso nos convertiremos.
luismtzzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jun, 2014 02:06 pm
@luismtzzz,
<<This is an english speaking site. I fell terrible sorry for posting in spanish. I think is disrespectful for those who do not know my lenguage. I apologize since i can not erase my previous post i made a translation. I am deeply sorry this will not happen again.>>

Tiene usted buen manejo del español , me supongo que se trata de un hispano parlante nativo. Si no es así de verdad felicito su calidad para la escritura de mi idioma.

<<You have a good use of spanish, i assume that you are a native hispanic speaker. If it is not, i congratulate you for the quality you show writnig on my lenguage>>

Yo entiendo la palabra de dios, no soy ajeno a los preceptos religiosos, y entiendo todo concepto de pecado, salvación y redención. Fui adoctrinado desde niño en la fe católica apostólica romana y le aseguro que se de memoria muchos de las costumbres, letanías, salmos, rituales de la eucaristía de mi religión.

<<I understand Gods word, i am not stranger to religious arguments, and i understand the concepts of sin, salvation and redemption. I was adroctinated as a child on the catholic apolstolic roman faith and i can asure you that i know by memory most of the lethanies, salms, and rituals of the eucaristia of my religion>>

Esta equivocado al creer que no acepto a dios. Ya he tenido esta discusión innumerables veces con gente de rígidos conceptos religiosos.

<<You are wrong beliving that i don´t acept god. I had been on this conversation with people of rigid religious concepts countless of times .>>

Amo a dios, mi fe es fuerte, y mi dedicación al bien de los demás es constante. El estar descuerdo con la ciencia no modifica en nada mis creencias por que mi espiritualidad y mi intelectualidad trabajan de forma separada. Un universo de 13.798±0.037 billones de años es mas maravilloso sorprendente y real que cualquier historia de un libro escrito por hombres. Pues los hombres erran, se corrompen, y mienten. Pero las leyes naturales no lo hacen. Son universales e intemporales.

<<I love god, my faith is strong, and my dedication to the good of my peers is constant. Agreeing with science do not modifies my belifs because espirituality and intelectuality can work separatedly. A universe of 13.798±0.037 billons of years is far more amazing and real than any story on a book writen by men. Men are prone to failure, they are corrutable, and men lie. But natural laws don´t have this flaws, they are universal and atemporal>>

No creo en los hombres y sus imágenes, en sus monumentos y rituales. Creo en dios todopoderoso quien nos hará salvos. Quien da esperanza y fuerza y valor y coraje. Que nos da la puerta a la vida eterna después de la muerte.

<<I don´t belive en men and their images, in their monuments and their rituals. I belive in an allmighty god who will save us. Threw hope, and strenght and valor and bravery. That give us the door to the eternal life whn we die>>

Polvo somos y en polvo nos convertiremos. Señor WT24, somos polvo de estrellas, y en eso nos convertiremos.

<<Dust we are and in dost we will become. Mr WT24, star dust we are and stardust we will become>>
worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2014 08:32 am
@luismtzzz,
It is ok. I should not have written to you in Spanish.

I appreciate your post! I am thankful you have the experience that you have with God!
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 06:07 pm
@worldtraveler24,
You think animals to be emotionless, really?
Name one that does not provide (with what it has) for it's young, community, species? 'Endearment'
Name one that does not flee danger? 'Fear, anxiety, terror'
Name one that does not suffer when pained? concern, worry, trauma.
Name one that does not enjoy, play, frolick? happiness, joy, excitement.

I need not continue.
You, out of educational ignorance, continue to insult everyone who has bothered to acquire knowledge on the back of your ideal.

It's great that you believe in something, but grrr. Stop trying to disprove science with non-science (nonsense).
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 06:31 pm
@worldtraveler24,
Of course science does not disprove god. Why would it?
It has genuine (physical) stuff to measure. It doesn't disprove giant wombles at the earth's core or that fish are able to time-travel......
Think about it?
How can you measure something that isn't there to measure in order to prove it isn't there?
It's impossible and pointless to waste time trying to achieve the impossible and pointless.
If someone claimed to have the ghost of Elvis in their vacuum cleaner, the onus is rightly on them to provide supporting evidence, not science to prove otherwise....?
What bloody scientist would even care to further examine?

Ps. Check out Georges Lemaitre. And then a list of breakthroughs by catholic scientists.

Oh, Lemaitre (Gave us the 'Big Bang Theory').

worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 05:36 pm
@mark noble,
I appreciate your intelligent words! I for one am not Catholic and do not even consider the Catholic church relevant to Christianity. I am not proving or disproving science I am simply saying that there is more to this world than your scientific approach. If you base everything in your life on science you are going to miss more than you will ever want to miss.

If you simply don't believe in a creator because you have no "PROOF" then you perhaps should look a bit closer.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 06:26 pm
@worldtraveler24,
The fact that nearly all of today's science, technology, quantum physics, genetics, cosmology etc, originate from religiously-fixed mindsets was my intended point. Not your preference to denomination.
And what do you not share with catholicism, might I ask?
worldtraveler24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2014 01:37 pm
@mark noble,
The Trinitarian doctrine, the vain repetitions in praying the rosary, all of the money makers, the candles, the idealism behind the priesthood, and all of the small children they have molested: Must I go on?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2014 03:03 pm
@worldtraveler24,
You wrote (with a straight face?),
Quote:
It is important because after 6,000 years man should have evolved into a much more intelligent and elevated being then he is with many more capabilities --that is if your theory of evolution were true.


Where did you obtain this silly opinion? What has "intelligence" have anything to do with religion or evolution?
0 Replies
 
Syamsu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2014 06:41 am
@giujohn,
Intelligent design theory, by any other name, is now cutting edge science. Or so to say, to describe the origins of organisms and species in terms of the decisions by which they came to be, that is new science.

According to this science there are several different ways that the universe can turn out, which means freedom is real and relevant in the universe.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2014 07:06 am
The bullshit in this thread is so deep, i'm gonna need hip waders.
Syamsu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jul, 2014 07:59 am
@Setanta,
That is typical atheist humor. To make a matter of opinion into a matter of fact, to make the spiritual **** into material **** that you have to have boots for.

But this is not just humor, atheists truly do not accept anything spiritual is real, they only accept material. Even when serious atheists say to be able measure love as being electrochemistry in the brain. They treat love as fact, and because beauty is based on an assertion of love, therefore atheists treat beauty as fact.

Just like Sheldon from the big bang tv serie, who always talks in terms of a matter of fact who is goodlooking and who isn't. That is how atheists are.
 

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