Elliot Rodger

A doesn't escape punishment by simply claiming to be drunk at the time.

My preschool class once went on a field trip to the park, where I had the misfortune of getting lost. As my class was eating lunch, I ventured off to another area of the park, and when I returned, my class had moved on. I remember panicking and asking strangers for help. It was a terrifying experience for me. I was eventually led to my class by the strangers I talked to.

We both know the answer - it is unjust - and we both see the parallels to rape law (hence why you don't want to answer the question directly). Principles don't change...and yet you desperately want this principle to be flawed, or wrong.

and we both see the parallels between that scenario and rape law - where it is involving two drunk adults engaging in willing sex (hence why you don't want to answer the question directly).

Let's suppose you leave a window in your house open and then get drunk and fall asleep on your couch. Some drunk walking by sees a welcome sign on your door, and takes that as an invitation to come in, so the drunk goes through the open window, and begins stuffing your property into a bag. You wake up and see the person and yell, "What the hell are you doing in my house!" The drunk replies, "You invited me in, you have a welcome sign, you left a window open." "Like hell I did!" you reply, as you pick up your phone and call 911. The burglar hotfoots it out the window with the bag, but is apprehended by the police.

firefly wrote:

Go to the rape thread--we've been discussing those issues for 4 years in that thread.

If I were to voice an opinion there, would it be addressed fairly?

I thought all of the cool kids were obnoxious jerks, but I tried as best as I could to hide my disgust and
appear “cool” to them. They were obnoxious jerks, and yet somehow it was these boys who all of the
girls flocked to. This showed me that the world was a brutal place, and human beings were nothing
more than savage animals. Everything my father taught me was proven wrong. He raised me to be a
polite, kind gentleman. In a decent world, that would be ideal. But the polite, kind gentleman doesn’t
win in the real world. The girls don’t flock to the gentlemen. They flock to the alpha male. They flock to
the boys who appear to have the most power and status. And it was a ruthless struggle to reach such a
height.
It was too much for me to handle. I was still a little boy with a fragile mind. Thinking about such things
would only crush my innocence, and it eventually will

The Rodger kid just couldn't take rejection.
I got used to it and lost count of the number of times girls told me to "Clear off and kill yerself" when I asked them for a date in my teens, but I just laughed it off..

Elliot Rodger and Poisonous Ideals of Masculinity
He videotaped misogynistic rants about women before killing himself and at least six others at UCSB. But his hatred of femininity is tangled with hatred of other men—and himself.
Noah Berlatsky
May 27 2014,

Like Elliott Rodger, who killed at least six people in Santa Barbara last week, when I was 22, I had never had a girlfriend. Like him, I had never kissed a girl. Those facts weighed on me, just as they seemed to have weighed on Rodger. Being a virgin, as I've written before, made me feel broken and wrong and failed. In a YouTube video uploaded on the same day that he allegedly stabbed and shot four male and two female students, Rodger said that "a beautiful environment is the darkest hell if you have to experience it alone.” I don’t agree with him, but I recognize the sentiment.

Rodger’s horrifying violence, the videos he posted, and the way he saw himself are all extreme. But they’re also a reflection of the way poisonous ideals of masculinity affect men. To some extent, I’ve felt the frustration Rodger felt, and I think other men may feel it as well. This is not an excuse for Rodger’s actions, but something more painful: a confrontation of the ways in which he's not deviant, but typical. Acknowledging that seems like an important part of making sure this kind of thinking doesn’t remain typical any longer.

In his YouTube videos and a 137-page manifesto he wrote, Rodger's frustration toward women is constantly couched in terms of his hatred and envy of other men. "My problem is girls," he says, but adds, "I deserve girls much more than all those slobs." The threats in his final video are aimed at women, but they’re also directed at men:

"All you girls who rejected me and looked down upon me, and, you know, treated me like scum while you gave yourselves to other men. And all you men, for living a better life than me. All of you sexually-active men. I hate you. I hate all of you and I can’t wait to give you exactly what you deserve. Utter annihilation."

In her book Between Men, Eve Sedgwick dissects this kind of thinking: Men typically route their feelings toward and competition with one another through women, she says. Women become tools through which men show their power and worth to other men. Success with women is also an important part of men’s self-image—that’s a big part of what it means to “be a man.” This seems to be the kind of thinking at work when Rodger says he feels like women are "treat[ing] me like scum" when they have boyfriends who aren't him. To him, women aren't people; they're markers of who is and who is not a man. If a woman chooses someone else, the thinking goes, that means Rodger and others like him are not men.

This equation of manhood with desirability and sexual prowess is just about everywhere in our society, from the priapic James Bond to the nebbishy, always rejected Clark Kent and his alter-ego, the ever-desired Superman. This rings true in my own experience, too. For me, being a virgin wasn't painful because of the lack of sex or the lack of companionship. It was frustrating because of the sense that I was doing it wrong; that if I didn't have a girlfriend, I was, like that old Marvel character, Man-Thing, a misshapen mockery of a man.

This kind of thinking creates a version of male identity that is bifurcated, or split in two. There is the man you should be, and then there is the failed, non-man thing you are. You can see this in ugly detail in Rodger's videos, where he veers back and forth between outlandish claims of his own magnificence and despairing statements of his own inconsequentiality. At one moment he's the "ultimate gentlemen," the next he's "so invisible as I walk through my college, because none of the girls pay attention to me." He is super human and then he's nothing; there's no space between the two. For Rodger, this could only be resolved with the ultimate expression of “manliness”: violence. "If I can't have you girls, I will destroy you," he says. And he destroyed himself, too: that pitiful failed thing who was not a man.

Misogyny shaped Rodger's view of women. But it also shaped his self-loathing view of himself and his masculinity, or lack thereof. The stigma against male virgins is something that men like Rodger—and men like me—internalize, and is, in itself, a form of misogyny. As Julia Serano writes in her book, Whipping Girl, that misogyny is directed not only against women, but against femininity—against anyone who fails to be that ideal, powerful, alpha superman. As long as masculinity is based in hatred of and fear of femininity, it will be expressed in violence—against men, against gay people, and against the marginalized. And most of all, it will continue to motivate violence against women.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/05/elliot-rodger-and-poisonous-ideals-of-masculinity/371588/

The first episode of my favorite television series of all time, Game of Thrones, was released in April. I
watched it with profound excitement. Being a fan of the books, this was a very anticipated event for me.
Seeing all of the characters that I knew so well on the television screen was spectacular. The show
exceeded all of my expectations. Each week I looked forward to the next episode, and each episode
gave me a small hint of joy in my otherwise bleak life.

Two drunk adults engaging in "willing sex" are not violating any laws--no one is going to get punished. Drunk sex is not against the law. This is where your example makes absolutely no sense to me.

The problem is, your example doesn't comport with reality.

And I did answer it with regard to sexual assault law

If two different couples each have drunken willing sex (and each have the same level of intoxication to their partners):
Couple A: the woman may go 'that was a great night'
Couple B: the woman may go 'ugh, now I hate myself...I will make a rape complaint'

do you commit a crime' only capable of being truthfully answered by 'it depends on how the woman feels about it after the fact':

The notion that this crime has any relevance to "feminism" is utterly absurd and totally undermines any assertion that the person advancing it has anything approaching a serious intelligence.

I dont seen any attempt by a teacher to take him under the wing.

Everything my father taught me was proven wrong. He raised me to be a polite, kind gentleman. In a decent world, that would be ideal. But the polite, kind gentleman doesn’t win in the real world. The girls don’t flock to the gentlemen. They flock to the alpha male. They flock to the boys who appear to have the most power and status

I can concur that if a guy is a bit drunk himself and the woman is blotto to the point of near black out and he proceeds to go ahead, then she has cause to complain.

I can see the problem of a woman potentially being regretful for various reasons in the morning and going to the police about it, blaming the guy, but I think most women wouldn't do that

The notion that this crime has any relevance to "feminism" is utterly absurd and totally undermines any assertion that the person advancing it has anything approaching a serious intelligence.