Catholics supporting legal abortion denied communion.

It would appear that the Vatican is not above religious blackmail. I for one, with that in mind, will great trepidation voting for a truly religious Catholic. In a secular nation such as ours, politicians, in affairs of government IMO owe their first allegiance to the people they serve. If they are unable to they should not be seeking political office.

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au1929 wrote:

It would appear that the Vatican is not above religious blackmail

I don't believe this can or should be called "religious blackmail." The Vatican is only ensuring that respect be given to the holiest of sacraments, the Eucharist, which we believe is the actual body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Allowing someone to partake in this sacrament who is in a state of mortal sin, does not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or - in this case - believes it is ok to commit murder, would be the ultimate profanity and offense to God.

In addition, I believe only someone whose first allegiance is to God could truly serve their fellow man.

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geesh - did someone help them get the log out of there own eye?

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The greatest Commandment = Love
Of course turning people away is a sure way not to - I think you need to let God do the sorting out - that's not our job to judge and sort out other peoples short-sightedness.

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ptreegrdn

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In addition, I believe only someone whose first allegiance is to God could truly serve their fellow man.

That is religious poppycock. If you are an elected official your first civic duty is to serve your constituents. If you are unable to fulfill that requirement you have no business rung for office in a secular with diverse population such as ours. I believe the Vatican issuing edicts on the political behavior of politicians and attempting to enforcing them by blackmail is out of place and unacceptable.

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au1929 wrote:

ptreegrdn

Quote:
In addition, I believe only someone whose first allegiance is to God could truly serve their fellow man.

That is religious poppycock. If you are an elected official your first civic duty is to serve your constituents. If you are unable to fulfill that requirement you have no business rung for office in a secular with diverse population such as ours. I believe the Vatican issuing edicts on the political behavior of politicians and attempting to enforcing them by blackmail is out of place and unacceptable.

That is only if you believe that allowing murder is "political behavior" and not a moral issue. The Vatican is only enforcing the rules of the Church, which do not change whether or not you are a politician - if one does not want to follow the rules of the Church, then he/she should join another faith group. By calling himself a "pro-choice" supporter and a Catholic, Kerry is contradicting himself. My statement only meant that if your first allegiance is to God, you will by default be serving your fellow man. I don't believe you can separate yourself into two persons - one of "such-and-such job" and another of "such-and-such faith." That would be like saying that a woman with two children stopped being a mother when she went to work at the hospital as a nurse. If you want to be a Christian, you have to be a Christian all the time. You can't pick and choose when to uphold your beliefs just when it suits you - or to gain votes.

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ptreegrdn
If you are unable to compartmentalize and separate your religions dogma from government you should not be in government. Why should an atheist or someone of a different faith or belief system be subjected to the religious tenets of Catholicism?

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If you want to "compartmentalize and separate religious dogma from government," then how can you complain about an action of the Church? The Vatican has only ruled on a Church matter - taking Communion. That has nothing to do with the government, and is definitely not making anyone subject to its rules, unless they choose to be. If Kerry can separate his religion from his politics, there is no issue, but he can't have it both ways.

Here's a few questions for you - why is murder illegal? why is theft illegal? There must be some belief system necessary in our government to have these laws...

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ptreegrdn
Are you suggesting that murder and theft is illegal because of religion. They would be illegal with or without religion. After all religions are all the invention of mans fertile brain. Both laws and religion come from the same source so obviously it a case of what came first the chicken or the egg?

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I think I agree with ptree here.

The Catholic church is a religious organization.

In this case they are making a religious judgement about a religious belief (that abortion is a sin) and a religious ritual (communion).

A Catholic politician who is pro-choice is at odds with his or her religion. They need to reconcile this in their own lives. It is the politician's responsibility to sort out their own beliefs, not the church's.

Communion is not a part of political life. It is a part of religious life. The Church is acting appropriately according to its beliefs.

I don't see what the big deal is.

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ptreegrdn wrote:

Here's a few questions for you - why is murder illegal? why is theft illegal? There must be some belief system necessary in our government to have these laws...

Well, certainly not because the bible says it is naughty. If that were so, then we would be executing people for adultry, homosexuality, or disobedience to parents.

"There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain." Mark Twain

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Quote:

I hope this action will cause a backlash of support for John Kerry among those who believe in the separation of church and state---and complying with the law of the land.---BBB

I believe strongly in the separation of church and State.

Kerry will not receive my support (or my vote) for this or any other reason-- but that's because he has abandoned anything close to progressive values.

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ebrown_p

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It is the politician's responsibility to sort out their own beliefs, not the church's.

That is my point.

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No. That's my point.

The church has every right to administer its rituals as it chooses based on its doctrine. A politician has every right to act according to his beliefs.

A priest who upholds the doctrine of the church by refusing to perform a sacrament on a member who is defying the church is behaving ethically. If a politician is at odds with his church, he can always leave.

If a politician is religious, his only ethical duty is to be up front about his beliefs to his constituents before they elect him. If they understand his beliefs and values and elect him, so what. That is his right and their right.

There is no problem here. The church is performing the role of a church. The politician should perform the role of a politician.

The Catholic church has done a number of things that I have found offensive.

This isn't one of them.

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Very well said, ebrown.

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ebrown_p- Agree. If a person has sworn to uphold the Constitution, that is his duty. It is the duty of the church to uphold their teachings. If there is a conflict, and the politician considers that his church's teachings supercede the constitution, it is his duty to step down from his office.

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truth
EBrown, I agree that Kerry's political actions and values are not sufficiently progressive, but I will vote for him because of the drastic position of Bush.

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Catholics supporting legal abortion denied communion.

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