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More weird animals and animan traits.

 
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 11:26 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Hi Coluber, I found some stuff:

http://www.wcer.wisc.edu/ncisla/muse/naturalselection/materials/section4/lesson4A/handouts/handout2.html

Aposematism is the term used to describe a bright coloration in association with poisons (as a warning mechanism).

http://www.utexas.edu/opa/news/03newsreleases/nr_200310/nr_frogs031001.html

I think the key is that Coral Snakes didn't immediately become lethal as they evolved. They must have gone through a stage when they were dangerous, but not lethal, during which their coloration developed.


I'm still not sure how a currently living predator knows that bright colors are dangerous, unless that too has been incorporated in the genetics somehow.


Hello, Rosborne: I've been on the road for a couple of weeks and have done some thinking on this matter. I haven't had a chance to read your websites yet, so that may yet change my opinion.

I think my premise that coral snake bites would always be 100% fatal to birds of prey is totally wrong. Assuming that a bird received a full dose of venom, the bird would surely die, but considering the small size of these snakes and their small mouths and fangs, it's reasonable to assume that in many cases the amount of venom delivered would be miniscule, perhaps only enough to produce localized pain and partial paralysis. I think that in a population of hawks living in an area with a viable population of coral snake every hawk would have multiple encounters with these snakes until the hawk either receives a fatal bite or a temporarily disabling bite. That hawks have such keen sight and fly high and cover large territories, encounters are very likely considering the brightly-colored snakes.

It's always possible that the birds are genetically programmed to avoid the color red in response to the early coral snakes venom evolution, but this process would have to have happened in every species of hawk and eagle etc., and this seems way to complicated. I think the learning experience is more likely.

I've always found it difficult to imagine what the world had been like before the arrival of man, especially technological man, and the effect we've had on the natural world. Ecological niches would have in balance and saturated with the resident species. A case in point is the greatly reduced numbers of snakes in the wild.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 12:29 pm
coluber2001 wrote:
I think my premise that coral snake bites would always be 100% fatal to birds of prey is totally wrong. Assuming that a bird received a full dose of venom, the bird would surely die, but considering the small size of these snakes and their small mouths and fangs, it's reasonable to assume that in many cases the amount of venom delivered would be miniscule, perhaps only enough to produce localized pain and partial paralysis.


Hi Coluber, welcome back.

I agree that not all Coral Snake encounters are fatal to the hawks, thus allowing them to learn.

But I also wonder if there's a genetic component to this in which birds (and other predators) have inhereted a wariness of bright colors.

Certainly snakes (and amphibians) have been evolving the colorization/poison combination for a long time, so if there is any type of "color sensitivity" in the predators, it might be focused by selection.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 10:01 am
http://www.johncangphoto.com/fotopages/wbd4790.jpg
Photo by johncangphoto.com. Swallow-tailed kite clutching twig with spanish moss it plucked from tree for nesting material while in flight.

http://www.hatchie.com/images/kite_perching.jpg

Swallow-tailed kite. Elanoides forficatus. Range: Summers-from March-in Florida, Gulf states and Atlantic states to S. Carolina. Winters in South America. Wingspan: up to 50 inches.

This is a beautiful bird of prey that can be seen overhead in Florida in the warmer months. It is considered to be the most aerial of birds of prey grasping its prey of large flying insects and other small animals that it plucks from the ground and trees, and eating while airborne. It also drinks and gets nesting material while on the wing.
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Snakepro
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 09:40 am
Coral snakes
Coral snakes have been shown to instill fear in naive motmots, a bird native to Costa Rica (coral snakes aplenty!) . Birds taken from nest before left nest naturally so no experience of snakes possible and in a lab based exp, they showed fear when shown models of coral snakes. Even to specific colours of red black and yellow. however showed no fear to blue and green stripes!!! So would appear that avoidance of the coral snake pattern is innate ie born knowing not to go near them. An evolutionary method of species survival??? Thus mimics gain clear advantage by not being eaten as often. Some predators may still attack but will most probably attack head end therefore disabling any potential threat.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 11:09 am
meet fossy the fossahttp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/fossa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/fossa.htm&h=230&w=373&sz=15&tbnid=IJ9budKguYAJ:&tbnh=72&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfossa%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D&oi=imagesr&start=1
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 11:10 am
well I know I'm dim but how do you post an image?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 06:09 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
well I know I'm dim but how do you post an image?


Reduce the URL down to the part which points specifically to the JPG file, like this: http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/fossa.jpg

And then enclose it in the IMG tags

http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/fossa.jpg

Your link doesn't point specifically to a JPG, so it fails to display in IMG tag enclosure. Hope that helps.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 06:11 pm
Fossa's are cool Wink
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2005 11:47 pm
Steve: You're trying to post a google thumbnail image, and that won't work. Enlarge the image or let it come up, and copy that.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 10:44 am
Snakepro: Is there an online source for the motmot experiment? Rosborne thought that there might be an innate fear of coral snakes, but I thought it unlikely. It follows that there might be other birds with similar instincts, but we wouldn't know for sure without further testing.

It has been observed that, regarding aposematic coloration in insects, the naive birds must have a bad experience with the insects—monarch butterflies, for instance, and that the birds sometimes learn to tear off the wings to eat the body, which has a lower level of toxins.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 01:14 pm
Thanks guys

I will study your posts and hope to improve my illiteracycomputernonskills

glad you liked the fossa Ros, isnt it amazing?

Like a dog/cat/puma hybrid
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2005 12:28 pm
http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/jpitocch/genbios/verts/glyptodont.JPG
Glyptodon fossilized skeleton.



http://www.rubberdinosaurs.com/zallinger-boreo-s.jpg
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 05:50 am
Deep Sea Angler

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/programmes/tv/blueplanet/picpops/images/prog2_2.jpg
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 06:04 am
http://www.herpsofnc.org/herps_of_NC/snakes/crohor4.jpghttp://www.herpsofnc.org/herps_of_NC/snakes/crohor3.jpghttp://www.herpsofnc.org/herps_of_NC/snakes/crohor2.jpg
Left photo: Dark phase timeber rattlesnake. Crotalus h. horridus.
Middle photo: Light phase Crotalus h. horridus.
Right photo:Canebrake rattlesnake subspecies Crotalus h. atricaudatus.




http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/endspec/fstirama.gifhttp://www.wildnaturephotos.com/WNP/Sets/RattlesnakeID/images/snakes/fullsize/snake_j.jpg
Range map of timber rattlesnake including canebrake subspecies. Canebrake - Crotalus horridus atricaudatus
Range: Southeastern U.S. from Eastern Texas through North Carolina, excluding Central and Southern Florida

Excellent article in Natural History Magazine by Rulon W. Clark on the results of his field study of timber rattlesnakes in Pennsylvania.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 07:34 am
My favorite of all ' strange creatures' are sea creatures.
I have always had a facination with thier adaptations.. the projected ages of these creatures and thier wierd abilities. Like creating light..
I have bookmarked pages but I can not find them. So I want to post pictures of some of the ones I find really facinating, but apologize for the fact that I dont have stats on them, no information.. just neat pictures

http://people.whitman.edu/~yancey/evermanella.jpg

http://collections.ucsd.edu/content/13/images/WuAngler200.jpg

http://www.imagequest3d.com/catalogue/deepsea/images/l043.jpg

http://warrensburg.k12.mo.us/ocean/anglerfish.jpeg

http://coexploration.org/bbsr/classroombats/assets/images/headlite.gif
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 03:55 pm
Incredible pictures, shewolfnm. Should you find the literature to go along with them, just hit "edit" and put it in.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 02:28 pm
http://www.chez.com/tegenarius/carpa.jpg
http://www.mindenpictures.com/cache/pcache/00510560.jpg
http://www.mindenpictures.com/cache/pcache/00510556.jpg
http://www.mindenpictures.com/cache/pcache/00510562.jpg
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 06:21 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1141830109/img/1.jpg
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Mar, 2006 12:10 pm
Ros: Is this the so-called "furry" lobster, the arthropod that has been on the news lately?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Mar, 2006 04:20 pm
coluber2001 wrote:
Ros: Is this the so-called "furry" lobster, the arthropod that has been on the news lately?


Yes it is. Cute little fella isn't he? Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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