Ecconomics of getting electricity from the wind

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Wind farms typically never show a profit unless the location is very favorable, such as the top of a ridge that falls away on both sides. Tall trees are also destructive of profit. The turbines need to be on towers as tall or taller than the tallest trees within about 200 feet. In NY state, and farther North ice damage is likely sooner or later.
Suppose the land payment is $1000 per month, payments on the towers and turbines = $2000 per month. Average miscellaneous $1000 per month. The electric company pays you $3000 per month average for the electricity you put on the grid. That gives you an average cash flow of minus $1000 per month for 60 months = $ 60,000 additional debt by the 5th year, but you have been paying principal on the initial loans, perhaps about $60,000 in principal. One of the turbines fails, or the tower. You get just enough salvage money to pay for the clean up and any engineering to re-optimise without one turbine. Now you are averaging $2800 per month from the electric Company. It would have been less, but you have rarely caused them a hassle, so they gave you an inflation rate increase. briefly your cash flow is minus $1200 per month average. Two of your generators suffer lightening damage which could have put you in bankruptcy, but the government grant pays you $9000 in back payments they owed you. One of the loans is now payed off, so you end the 6th year with $42 in black ink for that year. You still owe $75,000. Your equipment is getting old so your average miscellaneous has increased to $1500 per month, the nearby trees have grown taller blocking your wind significantly....So it goes about like that. You may see tiny profits now and then, but the wind farm clearly is not a get rich skeem unless somebody buys you out and pays more than a prudent amount. You probably don't own enough land on the ridge to do it bigger scale. You would likely be into diminishing returns on the grant money. Bigger might mean you need a full time employee besides your self. Bigger requires more know how to avoid costly errors. On the plus side, someone may hire you at $50,000 per year to operate their wind farm, now that you have become an expert. Please comment, embellish and/or refute. Neil

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neil last year there was an article in the Dallas Morning News about a family in Texas that put in one wind turbine. In the winter they got refunds from TXU because the were hooked into the grid, checks ranging from $2-$3. In the summer they ran the whole ranch plus the household for $3-$5 a month. Most people in North Central Texas pay at least $120 a month in any given season.

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Neal, I think that you are too pessimistic about our future energy supplies.

Most of our energy supplies are largely subsidized by the taxpayer and this is causing serious distortions in the whole system. Since modern standards of living are often quantified in "calories availiable per person" any popular government has a vested interest in making the "calories" more affordable. (at least to the impressionable)

We subsidize coal, oil, and automobiles by refusing to assign a value to clean air. We subsidize nuclear plants by not requiring that they clean up their mess. (disposal of radioactive materials) and by not requiring sufficient liability insurance of them. There are literally hundreds more subsidies that tend to transfer costs from the user of the power to the general population.

Most people,not realizing that things like the Highway Patrols are a subsidy to motorists vote for these subsidies. To wit- power line easements are a subsidy for electrical consumers,Medicare and Medicaid are a subsidy to hospitals. Mortgage based tax deductions are a subsidy to home building companies. The list, in the US, goes on practically forever, and causes many wasteful inefficiencies.

I suggest again that you search NEG-MICON. That will get you to places all over the world that are trying various types of wind farms. Chasing the links around will give you a lot of information as to financing, impacts and quite a lot else pertinent to investing, building, operating with reference to wind energy. Thats my personal favorite but there are quite a lot of other games in the world.

None of them are a free lunch disbursement facility Sad

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Don't worry Neil. As soon as I patent my Green Energy Solution; all other methods will be obsolete. Think Hydro man!

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The economics of wind farms are irrelevant.
That they completely eliminate pollutants is highly relevant.

Naturally there are all the arguments and valid points that you have to use industrial processes etc... in order to build the damn things in the first place but once they are up. They are up !
The maintenence required is a very small fraction indeed of the initial cost of the turbine.

So after a while there are zillions of wind farms all over the place all putting energy into the grids for no cost and no pollution. Sure you've used up more fossil fuels etc... to build it but now the thing is up you're using a little bit less and there's that much more free energy to go towards the next wind farm
Over time the amount of consumable energy sources is reduced to a very small fraction of what it was.
Splendid.

The only problem I can see is that there is nowhere near enough of them going up and they tend to be in daft places too.
Why aren't the advocates of wind farms slicing the tops off mountains and filling the space with turbines ?

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Helio, We are where we can.

The top of the ridge does not have to be seriously altered as the rocks are already near the surface. Trimming brush, smoothing out a narrow road (graveled) and levelling a pad sufficient to set the tower on are about all that is necessary. Trees don't grow atop mountains very well and I don't see that the rain collection function should be damaged overmuch. In a few years the gravel road and the towers will be the only unnatural appearing things. Compared to Chernobyl, the mines and the oil spills they don't look bad a'tall. If they work well then the air will clear up enough so that you will be able to see them. Currently most of the times I have been in the neighborhood you could barely see them from ten miles away. Sad

I'll send a picture if I am lucky. NEG-MICON (amongst others) has some fact sheets out.

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Hi heliotrope: The wind turbines do need repair occasionally, but the new ones are more reliable. Eventually each is beyond ecconomical repair so we will keep making a modest level of pollutants to construct replacements.
Have you thought about the details of slicing the top off mountains ? Explosives might be least expensive. If sky cars become available, a few people will want to live on mountain tops, so there would be consumers for the electricity even in very isolated locals..
We could require cell phone companies to install tiny wind turbines on existing cell phone towers, unless they could document a good excuse such as not enough wind at that location. New cell phone towers must be designed strong enough to permit somewhat larger wind turbines= 5000 watts minimum. Assuming success, other kinds of towers could also have wind turbines, perhaps even the towers that hold high tension electric power lines. Ten million turbines supplying 1000 watts each, (average) is 10 gigawatts, the peak demand of one very large city. Should we go for it? Neil

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High occom: have you actually started the patent process so you can tell us about increadible hydro before the end of 2004? Neil

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Here in the EU, especially in Germany, wind energy is highly profitable - especially, since it's subsidised :wink:

The international wind energy industry looks forward to significant growth in the next few years - by 2012 a total of 150,000 megawatts (MW) of installed power are expected worldwide. The predicted growth of 110 000 MW by 2012 would be equivalent to some 130 billion euros. The current total is about 40,000 MW of installed wind power.

WindEnergy

"The voice of the wind industry"

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Nice links Walter,

Subsidies are running rampant in the energy business. They are not always in direct payment form. Shocked

For instance subsidies often take the form of not requiring a producer to clean up the mess. :wink:

Chernobyl, Hot rivers and lakes, Chemical and mine drainage, air pollution, loss of fisheries and recreation sites and the costs of reclaiming water for drinking purposes are often costs to the general public that are not reflected in cash payments to the producer. IMO in fact subsidies Crying or Very sad

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Ecconomics of getting electricity from the wind

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