Re: No, no, really . . . i kid you not !
Setanta wrote:A few questions about lying:
Do you ever feel as though you have lied to someone for not having told all you knew? That is to say, knowing it would leave a false impression?
Not lately. But I am among the older among us. I might sometimes be silent or spare in my words. I try to represent myself securely, instead of chickening out (an old behavior), at the same time taking care to not eviscerate others (generally, if not always. Sometimes I screw up there. Fairly rarely I let it out in a sentence or so within a mass of words, with or without meaning to. Sometimes words I don't think wound, do.)
Are you ever dishonest in what you consider a trivial manner, in order to spare someone's feelings?
Again, not lately. I try not to be. But.... sometimes there is more than one me. I can agree with someone tirading about a certain type of, oh, (fill in blank), and have sympathy for someone working with constraints in another situation, making the jump to how they are thinking. In fact this is part of learning for me, to quiet myself and listen to how someone thinks.
Of course like all of us, I often just close the valve on how someone thinks.
How do you deal with the "elephant in the room" situation, meaning those situations in which everyone is obviously deliberately ignoring someone or something?
To me there are many elephants roaming around, defecating as they go or just strolling. I try and deal with the elephant fairly soon with the person, if only with a quiet question. Noooooooooo, not a passive aggressive question. I can't think of an example. I can only remember the second adult party I threw. The first was a full debacle, almost no one came but my and my friend's dates (one married couple broke up that weekend...). The second, and I had a small place, every one I invited came and I loved every minute, my tiny place looked good, the food was good in my then opinion, people were glad to be there, the music was wonderful, and indeed it was, that was '68...
Later I found out that one of my friends had had an abortion that morning and was a complete mess, a matter she would deal with for decades, and the (soon to be) cad showed up, and another who was nine months pregnant and beautiful, a friend from school and still now, was dealing with her husband (also if not a friend an acquaintance of mine) who was having his first affair...
Well, I didn't know about those elephants in that tiny apartment that evening. Or the ones at another party I had, when I asked 125 people to my one bedroom apartment over a spanish colonial house and most of them showed up. Let's just guess eleven elephants.
But re the quiet situation with an elephant, now, years later, I might ask a question or two.
Do you think that "the truth will out"--that lying eventually fails because one will be discovered?
That is what started me not lying, the practicalities. Plus, along about the time I was thinking about not lying as a good thing, then came along group therapy, etc. Lying became not only a venial sin (a matter I was also thinking of as strange)... but stupid, re figuring out who you are and representing yourself.
When does lying, in your opinion, become a matter of moral terpitude, or ethical failure?
Well, I think we lie even when we try not to. Ferreting out what is a clear line of truth or just ordinary thought isn't all so easy. I haven't thought about this question before, as such. I think f/ing someone up to look good yourself to yourself is over the edge, or to do it for financial gain, no matter how needed, though I can empathize re need and lying and am less judgemental, perhaps way less, oh, okay, even way way less.
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I would like to read what you think. Later, i'll answer my own questions. This is no ambush thread, i'm not trying to set anyone up for this. Frankly, i'm not yet certain how i would answer these questions for myself.
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I am not all so certain either. These answers are spontaneous. Would I lie later or fix a lie herein? Eh.
Joeblow wrote:Your views, Setanta?
OK, ok . . . in a minit . . . i gotta eat an' . . . well take care a somethin' else . . .
Do you ever feel as though you have lied to someone for not having told all you knew? That is to say, knowing it would leave a false impression?
I need to be honest about this--my feeling depends entirely upon my reaction to the person concerned. Were someone genuinely puzzled, and had been behaving decently to me and others--i would try to point them in the right direction, save a case in which i felt certain they would suffer from a truth (or what i believed to be the truth) the ignorance of which i felt assured would not harm them.
Were it someone whom i considered to be a fool, or acting the fool, or taking a high hand with myself and others, then they'd get out of me whatever they had the wit to ask, and perhaps not that. I know it sounds as though i were saying it's a judgment call and just wriggling out--but not really. These are the only two reactions i'd have, and the only judgment call would be in the character of the person as i saw it before making my decision. Very likely, my decision about what i would tell someone would be made without any train of conscious thought. What i've described is by now the habit of a lifetime, very nearly.
Are you ever dishonest in what you consider a trivial manner, in order to spare someone's feelings?
If the person concerned is not well known to me, and especially if i think it likely that i'd have little to do with them, or nothing, in future. If it were someone i knew, i'd try to find something else pleasant to say to them. Were an acquaintance insistent on an answer in such a situation, i'd "damn with faint praise," maintain a scrupulous courtesy, while stretching the truth as little as possible. Sometimes in that situation, so one might say: "You don't like it, do you?" . . . "Well, not really, but i don't necessarily dislike it either." Simply to give a little charm to a friend, i might then say something like: "You know, you look really good in those solid colors you seem to favor (something appropriate) . . . " If you won't exercise whatever charm you possess in dealing with your friends, i'd say you've been wasting it on strangers.
How do you deal with the "elephant in the room" situation, meaning those situations in which everyone is obviously deliberately ignoring someone or something?
I'd try to take my cue from the place in which i found myself. However, if it were a close friend who were the source of embarrassment of whatever description, i'd try to point it out as discretely and graciously as possible. If that drew a negative reaction, i'd bow out right away, with the thought--well, i tried, you do what you like. If it were my home, or the home of someone close whom i knew to be distressed, i'd make a point of discretion, but i'd waste no time letting the party concerned know of the discomfort or anger they were causing.
Do you think that "the truth will out"--that lying eventually fails because one will be discovered?
If the person concerned is either particularly stupid, or eaten up with guilt, i'd say yes. If someone chronically lies to build themselves up, although that may simply be a sign of a sad and poor self-image, i'd think that it would nevertheless likely come out, because people have difficulty keeping their stories straight when they are indeed telling the truth. As for the subject of Grand Conspiracies--these usually get exposed, perhaps only on an historical time scale however, because people keep records, correspondence, journals. I would surmise that venal and criminal conspiracy is the least stable an reliable of "lies," because those involved are not to be considered trustworthy in the first place, and are equally likely to mistrust those with whom they conspire. The most difficult secret to penetrate, though, to my mind, would be the crime or the plot of someone who was securely convinced of the rectitude of their action--those are the kinds of situations in which someone "takes the truth to their grave with them."
When does lying, in your opinion, become a matter of moral terpitude, or ethical failure?
I used the term "moral" because i know it to be understood a certain way by most people. For my own part, i don't believe in morality, for two reasons. The first is the absolute character of morality, which admits of no exception, and has pretensions to Eternal Truth--i don't believe that there are never exception to anything, except perhaps the laws of physics. Science not being by any means a strong suit, it basically leaves me believing there are no absolutes.
Ethics do matter to me however, and the ability of one to maintain an ethical standard might be described as morality writ small, to the level of the individual. In a certain sense, this is the easiest answer. I would say that any reasonably intelligent person (able to more or less act responsibly on their own behalf) knows, deep within, when they feel a sense of shame; knows if they have been just with others as they understand justice and desire it for themselves. This would lead to the final, most pernicious form of lying, which i had not made a subject of this discussion--lying to oneself.
My former husband may be what is called a pathelogical liar: he lies about things that can be verified. He once took me to court for allegedly calling him until 2 in the morning. Since in those days, you could get records from the phone company and since my daughter was in the high school marching band and had to be at school at 6 am the next day (meaning I needed to sleep, not be on the phone), I simply took the phone records and the band schedule to court. Afterwards, he stopped me in the hall and asked that we settle things personally and not take issues to court!
BTW, more than one therapist has suggested that he is mildly schizophrenic.
I have this horrible ability to lie to someone in such a convincing way that they'll believe what I tell them even if the real facts are right in front of their face. And I abuse this ability in me to steal petty laughs from people when they don't expect it.
Not only that, but I'm terribly sarcastic. I don't know if you would consider sarcasm a form of lying, but I still feel bad after I use it because whether it's malicious or not, it cuts on both sides.
Yes, lying or not telling the complete truth are some of my most horrible attributes, they make me an ethical failure. However, they also bring me great joy when I use these devices on stage in order to please an audience.
What do you think Setanta? Am I a walking ethical failure, or is lying just part of being human? Do you understand how odd it is that people can enjoy the fact that they can make someone believe the unbelievable and yet hate the fact that they are completely disillusioning their mind?
What an odd world in which words are so powerful that you can use them to convince a completely sane and intelligent person that their world is not the way that they know they have been experiencing it for their entire life. When we use the word 'lie' all sorts of evil images come to our minds and yet it has been essential in keeping humanity alive for centuries. It instills hope and amazement and awe into the world that without these lies would be completely devoid of any joy.
Oy, I'm not going any more into that...sorry for the little digression.
Setanta wrote:Cav, "elephant in the room" situations are those in which something is obvious to everyone, but it is pointedly ignored. Example: at a party, the hubby gets drunk and hits on every woman in sight, tries to grope the hired staff, etc.--and everyone acts as though they don't notice.
Ah, yes, I know these situations! They can be excruciating!
My response is generally to be VERY engrossed in the words of the spouse of the elephant! I'm certain the elephant will suffer later!!
