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The Half-life of Facts.

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 06:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You telling me not to play games....
While all you do is come with these childish semantic riddles...
Laughing
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 06:52 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Yes, of course. But even "the unknown" must have something linking it to the reality we experience for it to be considered potential fact.

If there exists a part of reality that is unknown, it follows that reality cannot be defined as 'what we know or perceive'. There remains an unknown, a difference between reality and what we know of it. And if with Socrates and Popper you believe that we never know nothing for certain, then the entire universe remains unknown at the sort of pure epistemologic level.

Yet this universe must exist if we are to exist in it.

Quote:
The higgs-boson, for instance, and black holes. Both were theorized to exist long before they were observed.

Forget about the Higgs boson and black holes. Reality has been theorized to exist since even longer, and each and every one of us sees proof of its existence every day... Still a few doubters out there though... Smile
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 06:55 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
No it isn't. I can read Mickey-Mouse comics, and the book and my mind will come together, but that doesn't make talking mice a reality.


Tell that to people reading the bible.

Quote:
Exactly. That's what it takes for us to consider it real. But demonstrating it as a fact isn't what makes it real.


Would you care to elaborate on that distinction? Feel free to relate it to the title of the thread.

Quote:
According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, reality is "the true situation that exists; the real situation; something that actually exists or happens; a real event, occurrence, situation, etc." Other dictionaries offer similar definitions. They are inconsistent with your view of reality in that the observer's consciousness doesn't play into them, whereas this consciousness is crucial to your concept of reality.


Except that consciousness is a prerequisite for asserting the above.
Extrapolating some unobserveable or unobserved reality from it is an act of faith. No amount of telling me this isn't so will change that.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 06:56 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
If there exists a part of reality that is unknown, it follows that reality cannot be defined as 'what we know or perceive'.


Name one thing that is part of reality but we have no knowledge or perception of then. Should be easy according to you.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:10 pm
@Cyracuz,
Why is it important to name anything? How could one name something that is unknown? And why should I try?

Accept the idea that there ARE places you've never been to, for instance, and that are unknown to you and you couldn't name them, but they exist. This works at the species level too. There are stuff out there that are yet to be discovered, and by definition nobody can say what. But our innate curiosity tells us to keep on the look-out for it.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:10 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
No it isn't. I can read Mickey-Mouse comics, and the book and my mind will come together, but that doesn't make talking mice a reality.

Tell that to people reading the bible.

I have read the Bible, twice, and both times my experience with it was the same as that with Mickey Mouse. I read the stories, book and mind connected, but that didn't make it real. Mickey Mouse, Jesus Christ, poteydo, potuhto.

Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
Exactly. That's what it takes for us to consider it real. But demonstrating it as a fact isn't what makes it real.

Would you care to elaborate on that distinction?

Not really. I think it pretty much explains itself.

Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, reality is "the true situation that exists; the real situation; something that actually exists or happens; a real event, occurrence, situation, etc." Other dictionaries offer similar definitions. They are inconsistent with your view of reality in that the observer's consciousness doesn't play into them, whereas this consciousness is crucial to your concept of reality.

Extrapolating some unobserveable or unobserved reality from it is an act of faith. No amount of telling me this isn't so will change that.

I'm not just telling you, I'm giving you evidence. Bacteria caused the Ancient Greeks to be sick, but the Ancient Greeks did not observe this reality. Electrons magnetized the needles of the medieval Chinese's compasses, but the medieval Chinese had not observed electrons yet. Forget faith! History abounds with evidence of realities unobserved by the people who lived in them.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:14 pm
@Olivier5,
As for general areas and issues that remain unknown (if that's the question), i would name the functioning of the brain and how it creates or supports our 'thoughts', or the origin of life.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:18 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
I'm not just telling you, I'm giving you evidence. Bacteria caused the Ancient Greeks to be sick, but the Ancient Greeks did not observe this reality. Electrons magnetized the needles of the medieval Chinese's compasses, but the Ancient Chinese had not observed this reality yet. Forget faith! History abounds with evidence of realities unobserved by the people who lived in them.


There is another side to that coin. History abounds with discarded facts. Facts that have been considered true and real once upon a time.
You seem to take it in stride that the only reason we speak in terms of bacteria is that we observe this reality.
Are you suggesting that we may never learn something that makes our modern concept of bacteria outdated?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:21 pm
@Olivier5,
You claim something exists without offering evidence of it's existence.

Sure there are places I've not been to and that I don't know the name of.
But these places are not outside of any reality I can potentially observe.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:26 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Are you suggesting that we may never learn something that makes our modern concept of bacteria outdated?

We may or may not. I expect that we won't, but if we will, that means we are being wrong right now. We won't be becoming wrong at whatever moment in the future we'll be proven wrong.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:44 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Sure there are places I've not been to and that I don't know the name of.
But these places are not outside of any reality I can potentially observe.

Grasping at straws now. There's no limit to 'what you can potentially observe', is there?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 07:59 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

You telling me not to play games....
While all you do is come with these childish semantic riddles...
Laughing



There is no semantic riddle, Cyracuz. We are trying to get you to understand that whatever IS...IS.

If there are things that exist that we humans do not know about...that does not mean they are not part of REALITY.

But discussing this is like discussing religion with a theistic zealot. There is no way to penetrate.

But it is enjoyable.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 05:44 am
You guys are all atheists right?

Does any of you care to explain how it is you can know that god isn't REALITY?
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 06:02 am
Cyracuz said:
Quote:
History abounds with discarded facts. Facts that have been considered true and real once upon a time

Yes mate, for centuries atheists said "There was no such place as Nazareth in Jesus's time", but they've been left red-faced and pouting by recent digs that have discovered there WAS.
Airy-fairy atheo-babble is one thing, but they can't argue with rock-solid evidence..Wink


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/nazareth-digB.gif


0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 06:15 am
@Cyracuz,
There is no way to tell if gods are part of reality or not.

Being able to say: I don't know, is an important philosophical skill. Apparently you can't.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 06:22 am
@Olivier5,
Are you retarded Lolivier?

The issue here is precisely the other way around. I am questioning the assumption of "absolute reality". I am not suggesting a new assumption.

And you, along with a few other clowns, refuse to admit that "absolute reality", such as it is defined, is an assumption.

So I am not the one failing to admit that 'I don't know'.
igm
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 06:37 am
Quote:
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss Ordinary Language Philosophy, a school of thought which emerged in Oxford in the years following World War II. With its roots in the work of Ludwig Wittgenstein, Ordinary Language Philosophy is concerned with the meanings of words as used in everyday speech. Its adherents believed that many philosophical problems were created by the misuse of words, and that if such 'ordinary language' were correctly analysed, such problems would disappear. Philosophers associated with the school include some of the most distinguished British thinkers of the twentieth century, such as Gilbert Ryle and JL Austin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b03ggc19
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 06:54 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

You guys are all atheists right?

Does any of you care to explain how it is you can know that god isn't REALITY?


I'm not an atheist...but may there is a GOD...and maybe there are no gods. If there is a GOD...IT is part of REALITY.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 06:56 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Are you retarded Lolivier?

The issue here is precisely the other way around. I am questioning the assumption of "absolute reality". I am not suggesting a new assumption.

And you, along with a few other clowns, refuse to admit that "absolute reality", such as it is defined, is an assumption.

So I am not the one failing to admit that 'I don't know'.


Actually, you are, Cyracuz.

You are the one claiming there is no component of REALITY that is outside what humans can know and describe.

You ARE the one failing to acknowledge that you do not know.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 07:18 am
@Cyracuz,
When you take the path of insults and venom, it becomes obvious to all that you lost the argument...

Anyway, i never refused to admit it was an assumption. Everything is an assumption, even your own existence. There are posts written on A2K under your ID, but that doesn't prove you exist as one human being or even several. You could be a machine or a monkey, for all I know, or your posts could be an hallucination... However, the hypothesis that you are human does explain the facts simply, elegantly and effectively. Therefore I will assume you are a real human being. Likewise I will assume reality exist until proven otherwise...

 

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