Inherent and Inalienable Rights

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All Men are are endowed with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

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Been there done that.

The rights are 'alienable', we wish they weren't, societies need to secure the rights but idealism that sees rights as some mysterious inborn power gets in the way by interpreting it in a magical way that does not credit societal structures.

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do i look better in 'alienable', or blue?

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Been there done that.

The rights are 'alienable', we wish they weren't, societies need to secure the rights but idealism that sees rights as some mysterious inborn power gets in the way by interpreting it in a magical way that does not credit societal structures.

Well, there are those who would interpret inherent rights in a "magical way" by ascribing them to divine provenance. There are others, on the other hand, who view certain rights as inherent by virtue of one's humanity, not by virtue of one's status as a creation of God. For instance, the preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world." Nothing magical or mysterious there.

I can, therefore, understand criticism of inherent rights if such rights could only be derived from some grant by a superior being. But then I would need some evidence to convince me that there is naught but a metaphysical basis for inherent rights.

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We'll just run into a logomachy and I can tell you where.

1) I do think most humans share certain desires for certain rights

2) I think that being divested of a right means it is not "inalienable". I recognize that many will argue that the right still exists in some form inherent to the human, even if is not secured for them.

3) "Rights" are subjective, and IMO these discussions about "inherent" and "inalienable" rights are just attempts to discuss what should be universal rights and are worded in inaccurate ways (what is inalienable as opposed to what should be).

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truth
Joe, are you a glutton for punishment? Or perhaps you didn't participate in the previous thread of the very same name. You have no inherent right to repeat that monster.

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JLN: What thread are you talking about?

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Joe, you were in the thread.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10409

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Craven: Ah, yes, how could I forget. Still, it's a valid topic and I, for one, am willing to revisit it.

JLN: I'll make a deal with you: I won't dredge up old topics if you agree not to bring up non-dualism ever again :wink:

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truth
I feel no urge to bring non-dualism up again. But when someone's problem seems to lie in his dualistic presuppositions, why shouldn't I or someone else point that out to him. Why should any "truth" be off limits?

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I promise just to read this time if you guys embark on this torturous wordy trail to nowhere, as long as you know we all have inalienable rights. <hee>

You can't separate me from my rights, only my ability to practice them...

I promise that is all I'll say.

(Even though I was born with them, recognised them as a child, and threw pitched battles to practice them from age 2, on....)

OK, now I promise. <Don't worry, no response required. I remember the fidty thousand responses from last time.>

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truth
So you are arguing, Sophia, that even a fetus has natural and inalienable rights which transcend the actions of society? In other words, the courts' present deliberations on whether or not a fetus has the right to legal revenge should his mother be killed are a waste of time because that right is somehow self-evident?

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So you are arguing, Sophia, that even a fetus has natural and inalienable rights which transcend the actions of society

Yes.

In other words, the courts' present deliberations on whether or not a fetus has the right to legal revenge should his mother be killed are a waste of time because that right is somehow self-evident?

No. "Right to legal revenge" is nowhere in Joe's initial statement, or in my argument. He was very succinct. He seems to be focusing on the 'endowed' and 'unalienable', as am I.

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My basic argument is that you can possess inalienable rights, rights which are born and die with you, which you may be prevented from practicing. But your right to life, freedom and self-determination cannot be morally denied--though they may be legally denied.
This infuriated masses of people last time, and I don't want to wreck the thread...

(There are people who are choking on their beer because you asked me...)

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truth
I don't see how they can discuss the matter without taking your position into account.

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Maybe someone else may take it up.
I'll be reading.
It's nice that you think it has some merit.

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As I said the last time this topic was in the forum, the only inalianable right is to choose and to act on your choices as best you are able. Everything else follows from there.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

We'll just run into a logomachy.......

is that a place similar to a laundromat, where you put all your 'branded' clothing shoes, etc. into a machine, and it eliminates all the 'logos' for you, so you don't have to walk the streets like a living billboard?

[which should, of course, be an inalienable right!!]

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Sofia wrote:

My basic argument is that you can possess inalienable rights, rights which are born and die with you, which you may be prevented from practicing. But your right to life, freedom and self-determination cannot be morally denied--though they may be legally denied.

A worthwhile distinction. But where do those inalienable rights come from?

Sofia wrote:

This infuriated masses of people last time, and I don't want to wreck the thread...

Oh, go ahead. What's the worst that can happen?

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rufio wrote:

As I said the last time this topic was in the forum, the only inalianable right is to choose and to act on your choices as best you are able. Everything else follows from there.

How is that a right? For instance, do you have the right to choose which person you'd prefer to kill, and then act on that choice as best as you are able?

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Inherent and Inalienable Rights

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