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Britian's crime rate is SO BAD compared to US?

 
 
parados
 
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 09:49 am
Or is it?


Discuss
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Type: Discussion • Score: 7 • Views: 3,955 • Replies: 62

 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 11:31 am

As I recall, the UK had double our crime rate and triple our violent crime rate. That was a good 10 years ago though. I don't know how much things have changed since then.
tsarstepan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 11:45 am
@parados,
According to the Monty Python Foundation, the upper class in Britain are foolishly violent. They run around in a gang named The Twits.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 12:39 pm
@oralloy,
Do you have any stats to back that up?

Keep in mind that the US and Britain classify crimes differently.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 12:42 pm
@parados,
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/24/blog-posting/social-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 12:43 pm
@parados,
You seriously expected Oralloy to produce evidence for his polemic ? ! ? ! ?
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:10 pm
@parados,
We have gone over this before. From your article, when the crimes are about the same type, the # is still double that of the US.

Quote:
As Bier put it, "The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a ‘violent crime’ as one of four specific offenses: murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." By contrast, "the British definition includes all ‘crimes against the person,’ including simple assaults, all robberies, and all ‘sexual offenses,’ as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and ‘forcible rapes.’ "

Once you know this, Bier wrote, "it becomes clear how misleading it is to compare rates of violent crime in the U.S. and the U.K. You’re simply comparing two different sets of crimes."

We thought Bier’s points were reasonable, so we tried to replicate his approach. We looked at the raw violent crime numbers for each country, using statistics for England and Wales for 2012 and for the United States for 2011, in a way that sought to compare apples to apples. (We should note that the United Kingdom includes Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the numbers in the meme appear to be based only on crime in England and Wales, which are calculated separately.)

For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:11 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Do you have any stats to back that up?

Not now. Maybe if you'd asked 10 years ago.


parados wrote:
Keep in mind that the US and Britain classify crimes differently.

I don't recall the classifications being all that different, but it has been quite some time since I was actually looking at the data.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:12 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You seriously expected Oralloy to produce evidence for his polemic ? ! ? ! ?

Hmmm.

polemic
noun
a strong verbal or written attack on someone or something


Well, had I presented a polemic in this thread, he probably would have expected it, given that I am generally happy to provide evidence in those circumstances.

But note the reality that I have not presented any polemic in this thread. Unlikely that anyone expects me to back up something that doesn't exist.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:16 pm
On another thread BillRM has claimed that mass killings happen in the UK as often in the US. I can find no evidence to support that.
Only 3 shootings in the last 30 years where more than 10 people have died.
Since 2000, only one bombing has resulted in fatalities.

The list of mass murderers in the UK is made up mostly of those that killed 3 or 4 people.
http://www.murderuk.com/mass_murderers.html

Someone killing 3 or more people happens almost monthly in the US.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:17 pm
@oralloy,
You only provide evidence if you feel you have presented a polemic?


But if your data is false you don't have to present evidence to support it?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:27 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
As I recall, the UK had double our crime rate and triple our violent crime rate. That was a good 10 years ago though. I don't know how much things have changed since then.


This is polemic--it is predicated on your strongly held, politically-motivated belief that guns make us safer (Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahaha) and that nations which practice gun control are more crime-ridden. One of the telling points about polemic is that it is not concerned with evidence or facts, but rather with "right-thinking" in the opinion of the one employing polemics. That's you--you just throw sh*t like this out there without substantiating it. Parados has, at least, provided a basis for a claim that it is not true that the crime rate is higher in the UK than in the US. You've done nothing but make yet another ipse dixit claim, unsupported, and conditioned by your extremist, right-wing political point of view.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 01:41 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
From your article, when the crimes are about the same type, the # is still double that of the US.

The article points out you are still making false comparisons.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:17 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
You only provide evidence if you feel you have presented a polemic?

No. Generally I provide evidence if I make a factual claim that does not seem self evident.

For those factual claims that I feel are self evident, I'll usually only provide evidence if someone asks for my evidence.



parados wrote:
But if your data is false you don't have to present evidence to support it?

I don't use false data.

The data would usually be the evidence. If I provide data, that data will likely be self-supporting.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:17 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
oralloy wrote:
As I recall, the UK had double our crime rate and triple our violent crime rate. That was a good 10 years ago though. I don't know how much things have changed since then.

This is polemic

Don't be silly. It was a recollection of stats I looked at some 10 or 15 years ago.


Setanta wrote:
it is predicated on your strongly held, politically-motivated belief that guns make us safer (Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahaha) and that nations which practice gun control are more crime-ridden.

No, it was predicated on that being what the stats said at the time I looked them up.


Setanta wrote:
One of the telling points about polemic is that it is not concerned with evidence or facts, but rather with "right-thinking" in the opinion of the one employing polemics. That's you--you just throw sh*t like this out there without substantiating it. Parados has, at least, provided a basis for a claim that it is not true that the crime rate is higher in the UK than in the US. You've done nothing but make yet another ipse dixit claim, unsupported, and conditioned by your extremist, right-wing political point of view.

Recollecting what the stats said a dozen or so years ago isn't really the sort of thing that is conditioned by a political viewpoint. Numbers are numbers.
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:23 pm
@parados,
It related similar types of crime. It was still twice that of the US. Nothing wrong with that as long as you admit it. You may not have the same amount of deaths in the UK as the US, but violent crime is still violent crime. I'm more likely to get assaulted in the UK then I am here in the US. I might not die or be seriously injured but the change is higher.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:37 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:
I'm more likely to get assaulted in the UK then I am here in the US.


That's only because you've got a big mouth.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:40 pm
@oralloy,
Your recollection is no kind of evidence, and you recall what you want to believe for polemical reasons. Your "numbers are numbers" is meaningless unless you can provide those numbers, and, as always, you don't provide any evidence at all.
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:48 pm
@izzythepush,
I'm guessing that by your response I'm right. I'm safer here in the US then I am in the UK. Funny how that works out.

I actually don't have a big mouth, I'm quiet the nice guy and I get along with almost everyone one I know. That includes those I don't agree with on politics or gun control.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Sep, 2013 02:52 pm
@Baldimo,
I'm sure you're as nice as pie.
 

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