Religious and Atheist.

@reasoning logic,

I have no interest in Frank's foolishness. There are some theists who will blithely say that with god, all things are possible, but it's easy to shoot that down with old conundrum of whether or not god can create a rock he cannot lift.

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An interesting view from Sam Harris:

Sam Harris wrote:

...Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.
It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: Most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high...

Full text can be found here... http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/atheist-manifesto-dec-7-2005

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@rosborne979,

Sam has a good read of the situation. I like what I read.

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Ephesians_2%2C12_-_Greek_atheos.jpg

This is the Greek word αθεοι (atheos) as it appears in the 3rd century Papyrus 46. It's used in Ephesians 2:12 to mean "without god." Wikipedia uses this image in its article about atheism.

I think "without god" sums up the idea behind the word "atheism," and would include those agnostics who are "without god."

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

I wonder if this may be a unique type of agnosticism that deserves a special name.

Selective agnosticism.

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I have two comments to make on Sam Harris' screed. The first is that that is what you get with democracy, whether or not Harris approves. The second is that although 87% of Americans may report a christian religious affiliation, that doesn't mean 87% of Americans approve of a fundamentalist political agenda. As a side note, it ignores the number of people who report being affiliated with one form of christianity or another, while also reporting that they do not believe in god. According to Pew, that's about 10% of all of those reporting a christian affiliation.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:

You gotta be kidding me.

Some theists think anything is possible;

Do any of them think that the devil could have created God?

I think there are theists who think anything is possible.

Quote:
Quote:
some atheists think anything is possible;

Do you know of one that makes this claim?

I think there are atheists who think anything is possible. There also are atheists like Setanta...who make you wonder if they are thinking at all.

Quote:

Quote:
some agnostics think anything is possible.

This does seem to be true because we know of at least one.

Good.

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@Frank Apisa,

I would ask a question of you if I may: Do you believe in any god? If the answer is yes, then you have a belief in a god. If the answer isn't yes, then you don't have a belief in gods, which means you have an absence of belief in gods, which means you are an atheist. Now while you may or may not have bad feelings towards certain atheists and possibly wouldn't relish being part of the same group with them, please remember that atheism is not a "group", it's a term used to describe people who don't answer 'yes' to whether or not they believe in gods. It's not a group you choose to belong to, it's an adjective used to describe your stance on god-beliefs.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

I would ask a question of you if I may: Do you believe in any god? If the answer is yes, then you have a belief in a god. If the answer isn't yes, then you don't have a belief in gods, which means you have an absence of belief in gods, which means you are an atheist.

Sorta begging the question here, aren't you.

You are simply defining atheism as the absence of a belief in gods.

I do not accept that definition.

I do not have a belief in gods...and I am not an atheist.

You want to make it necessary that a lack of belief in gods requires that you are an atheist.

That is a gratuitous, self-serving move on your part.

Quote:

Now while you may or may not have bad feelings towards certain atheists and possibly wouldn't relish being part of the same group with them, please remember that atheism is not a "group", it's a term used to describe people who don't answer 'yes' to whether or not they believe in gods. It's not a group you choose to belong to, it's an adjective used to describe your stance on god-beliefs.[/i]

'
For most of history...it was not used that way. For most of history it was used to describe a stance of asserting that there are no gods.

That was essentially the reason Huxley coined the word "agnostic"...to distance himself from the atheists of his day...who were almost certainly ALL strong atheists.

Weak atheism is an invention of modern atheists who see the absurdity of the strong atheist position...but who do not have the guts to call themselves agnostics. They want the "atheistic" designation...but want to file down the edges.

Weak atheism is a pathetic designation.

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@Frank Apisa,

Weak headed atheists...would not be bad!

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Weak atheism is an invention of modern atheists who see the absurdity of the strong atheist position...but who do not have the guts to call themselves agnostics. They want the "atheistic" designation...but want to file down the edges.

I thought that they call themselves agnostic atheists to pacify those who need pacifying.

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@igm,

I am not sure if you will ever be able to get through to Frank on this issue.

Frank's loud mouth little brother made a 2 minute video about it and what do you think Frank did? "Tuned it all out"

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Do any theists think that the devil could have created God?

I think there are theists who think anything is possible.

So you think that there are theists who think the devil created their God. Rolling Eyes

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some atheists think anything is possible;

Do you know of one that makes this claim?

I think there are atheists who think anything is possible.

OK so this is what you think but you do not know. Why aren't you agnostic on this position rather than believing what you think?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are simply defining atheism as the absence of a belief in gods.

I do not accept that definition.

I do not have a belief in gods...and I am not an atheist.

That is the current definition... not my definition.

Atheists have a lack of belief. Agnostics have a lack of knowledge.

Therefore you can be an 'agnostic atheist' if you have a lack of belief in gods because there is not enough knowledge to assert either way.

Again it is not my definitions but the contemporary definitions of atheism and agnosticism; the first is about belief the second about knowledge.

You Frank, are continuously telling everyone who'll listen that you don't do belief.... that at the very least makes you an atheist as explained above.

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@igm,

a-theism: Literally "Without belief in gods"

a-gnosticism: Literally "Without knowledge"

Also Frank, If you say, 'but I don't have enough knowledge to say there isn't a god or gods' then that would make you an...

... agnostic theist.

That's the position you're in; you're either an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist.... depending on how much of a lack of belief in gods you have.

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@igm,

Amended my last two posts above.

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@igm,

Quote:

Also Frank, If you say, 'but I don't have enough knowledge to say there isn't a god or gods' then that would make you an...

... agnostic theist.

That does not seem quite right.

He could claim that while also claiming to have never seen any evidence for the existence of a God.

Agnosticism is a good position to hold but frank takes it over the edge by assuming anything is possible when agnosticism should in it self know that "we do not know that all things are possible but yet he jumps to the conclusion that anything is possible.

There may be rules that things have to follow that do not allow for all things to be possible.

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@reasoning logic,

Atheism and theism are about belief. Agnosticism is about knowledge. If you can have an agnostic atheist then by still holding out that it is possible that one's lack of knowledge means there might be gods then that make one an agnostic theist.

If you can have an agnostic atheist then it follows you can have an agnostic theist. If so you are refusing to let go of your belief that gods are possible instead of just letting go of belief in gods; the distinction is very subtle but it is there.

(added one more sentence).

You have identified the problem... it is that if you think that way (in an agnostic theistic way) then you begin to think that the most absurd things are also possible.

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@igm,

Quote:

. it is that if you think that way (in an agnostic theistic way) then you begin to think that the most absurd things are also possible.

It may just be that Frank has been spending to much time in the sun golfing. Cool

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Weak atheism is an invention of modern atheists who see the absurdity of the strong atheist position...but who do not have the guts to call themselves agnostics. They want the "atheistic" designation...but want to file down the edges.

I thought that they call themselves agnostic atheists to pacify those who need pacifying.

You certainly are free to think that if you choose. Many atheists do indeed acknowledge that they are agnostic also.

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