15
   

We're from the government and we're here to help....

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 04:26 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

I just heard Obama say that the people cannot have both perfect privacy and perfect security. I think he is right.

A good example of the tradeoff is going through airport security. I think the public should be cheerful and cooperative about taking off shoes, getting scanned, etc. Absent this, we can expect a lot of attacks on airliners.


I think someone has said that perfect security is a fantasy and that feeding this fantasy our freedom is idiotic....
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 04:51 pm
@Advocate,
I'll take perfect privacy, please.

I don't mind going through airport security. It isn't a big deal. If I thought it was I wouldn't fly.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 05:04 pm
@boomerang,
using filters on the internet like the chinese do and tracking every single or almost every single call made IN SECRET AND WITHOUT CONSENT is no big deal says Obama. makes you wonder what it takes to get to a big deal.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 05:07 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
A good example of the tradeoff is going through airport security. I think the public should be cheerful and cooperative about taking off shoes, getting scanned, etc. Absent this, we can expect a lot of attacks on airliners.

I'm not averse to good security practices, but airport security is not an example of good security practices. Airport security is great at preventing people from taking water bottles on planes; it is not good at preventing actual threats.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 05:10 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
I'm not averse to good security practices, but airport security is not an example of good security practices. Airport security is great at preventing people from taking water bottles on planes; it is not good at preventing actual threats.


and it is great at spending gobs of money, and teaching people the lesson that they should be in fear and need big government to protect them. it is more a very expensive PR operation than it is a very expensive security operation.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Jun, 2013 11:18 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Once more in most states of the US a child can be judge to be a delinquent by the courts for drug used ETC without any convictions for same and locked up in some training institution until he or she reach 18 years of age!!!!!

Children do not have the same protections as adults and do not need to be convicted of a crime to have their freedoms taken away by the state.

You really don't know what the hell you're talking about.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 06:45 am
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
You really don't know what the hell you're talking about.


Try googling the power of courts to declare a minor a person in need of supervision and then the power to have such a minor locked up if the court feel that is the best way of dealing with a problem of an out of control minor who for example is a drug user. No criminal conviction needed.

Hell a parent or a school system have the right to petition the courts to take charge of such an "out of control" child.

Here judge is a survey where this child had admitted that he or she is a drug user and therefore an out of control minor in need of the courts taking charge of his or her life at least until the child is 18 years old.

Minors do not have the same level of protections that an adult does.and it all for their "own" good!!!!!!!!!!!

firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 08:54 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Here judge is a survey where this child had admitted that he or she is a drug user and therefore an out of control minor in need of the courts taking charge of his or her life at least until the child is 18 years old.

Your understanding of PINS (persons in need of supervision) petitions, why they are needed, the criteria for issuing them, and how they are used, appears extremely distorted. So is your understanding of the definition of an "out of control" minor, if you think that term can be appropriately applied to a child who has done nothing more than admit to some past drug use on a school survey questionnaire, and that a PINS declaration by a Family Court judge would result from that.
But, since this is an irrelevant tangent that you raised in this thread, I'm simply going to suggest you better educate yourself regarding the reality of what you are talking about.
Quote:
Minors do not have the same level of protections that an adult does.and it all for their "own" good!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as legal protections in Family Court, since you are referencing PINS petitions, minors have Law Guardians assigned to represent their interests and rights, which is the same sort of legal protection afforded to an adult who is involved in a court proceeding.
Quote:
That so call drug use study could result in great harm to individual children futures who was given little choice about taking part in such a study and when an adult teacher try to informed them of the danger and that they did not need to take part he was punish for doing so.

Again, you are presenting distorted information. The school survey was not "a drug use study"--it was an SEL assessment survey, and, of the 34 questions, only about 3 or 4 pertained to any past substance use, and, in the scoring, the answers became part of the total Negative Affect scale, which also reflected the strength of "risk factors" such as anxiety, depression, bullying, etc.

The children did have a choice about participating in the survey--their participation was not mandatory, and they were not threatened with any consequences if they did not participate, and some children chose not to participate. And, the children weren't under any penalty of perjury, so they weren't being compelled to be honest in their survey responses either. In addition, the child's parent had the option of opting the child out of the survey.

And, if you read the copy of the actual reprimand that was sent to the teacher, that wasn't exactly why he was disciplined. And, after considerable searching, I have yet to find a valid legal opinion stating that the children would have, or might have, faced possible criminal consequences for any answers given on that particular school survey. In addition, the school stated there would be no disciplinary action taken by them against the students for any survey response.

I'll echo the view that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 09:49 am
@firefly,
Quote:
So is your understanding of the definition of an "out of control" minor, if you think that term can be appropriately applied to a child who has done nothing more than admit to some past drug use on a school survey questionnaire, and that a PINS declaration by a Family Court


Past drug used or ongoing drug use for that matter and yes the school system can label someone a drug abuser and treat him or her accordingly and a court can take note of such an admission and on and on as to the degree of harm that survey could do to a child.

Hell if they did not plan on addressing the issue of a child drug use directly there would have been zero reasons to have the names of the students on the survey forms in the first place.

Come to think of it under mandatory reporting rules/laws the school system might end up with not choice but to reported admitted drug use to the police and the courts and the child welfare system under the theory that the child current guardians or parents might be neglectful.

You are opening up one hell of a can of worm for any child who might be stupid enough to answer that survey in an honest manner.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:00 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Past drug used or ongoing drug use for that matter and yes the school system can label someone a drug abuser and treat him or her accordingly and a court can take note of such an admission and on and on as to the degree of harm that survey could do to a child....

Come to think of it under mandatory reporting rules/laws the school system might end up with not choice but to reported admitted drug use to the police and the courts and the child welfare system under the theory that the child current guardians or parents are being neglectful....

You don't know what you're talking about.
Quote:
Hell if they did not plan on addressing the issue of a child drug use directly there would have been zero reasons to have the names of the students on the survey forms in the first place.

They wanted to identify significantly "at risk" children so support services could follow up to see if any interventions were needed to help those children, given that the school district has had several student suicides in recent years. But the "at risk" scaled score on this survey was determined by considerably more than the 3 or 4 questions relating to substance use--and student services at Batavia H.S. did reach out to some students, and their parents, based on these survey results. This was an SEL assessment survey, not a "drug use" survey. And there were no complaints about the way the survey results were actually used by the school for these students.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Which is why I won't waste time pursuing this with you, you just keep spewing forth more inaccurate statements that have no bearing on the actual situation with this particular SEL survey in Batavia.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:16 am
Another topic that is related to this, while being off-topic:

I came across this article today: http://raniakhalek.com/2013/06/05/philadelphia-is-closing-23-schools-while-building-a-400-million-prison/

The article is about how they are closing 23 schools in Philadelphia while the state is building a new $400 million dollar prison. The article includes this graph:

http://raniakhalek.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/school-closings.jpg?w=655&h=491

It reminded me of this TED talk I listened to a while back:



Just out of curiosity I looked up the demographics for Batavia High School (http://www.greatschools.org/ohio/batavia/2118-Batavia-High-School/?tab=demographics) -- 94% are white, with a higher average income than most of the state.

I get it that rich, white kids have social problems too, but all of this information taken together makes something in my brain itch.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:45 am
@boomerang,
Quote:
I get it that rich, white kids have social problems too, but all of this information taken together makes something in my brain itch.

If Batavia H.S. was trying to comply with a state mandate regarding SEL programs, which was a major reason this assessment survey was done, I would think that other schools in Illinois also used some survey methods of evaluating it--they may even have used the same BIMAS test. The only reason we heard about Batavia was the flack over the teacher's reprimand.

I'm not sure how to compare school closings in large cities with what goes on in suburban communities, like Batavia, even when those suburban communities are more racially mixed.
They've closed schools in predominantly white suburban communities around here because the schools were being underutilized, there was a decrease in the population of children using those schools over time. But, it's certainly true in suburbia that more affluent communities have more local tax money to plow into a school system, and less affluent suburban communities, which often have a much higher percentage of lower income minority residents, often lack needed funds. But I'm not sure, in my own mind, how that relates to big cities and the issues which may be unique to big city schools.

I need time to watch that video, and I do want to watch it. I'll get back to you after I've seen it.
hawkeye10
 
  5  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:25 am
@firefly,
SEL programs dont require screens at all, much less screens that ask under aged americans to self report as criminals without parental consent. the school board may well try to pass the buck here, but they are the ones who did the wrong.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:36 am
@hawkeye10,
I dont want the school to be deciding if my kids are morally and emotionally fit, nor do I want to be roped into their "help" when they find my kids wanting, nor do I want my family reported to CPS because one of my kids failed a morality/emotional fitness screen and the school decides that I am not suffuciently complient with their "help".

there was recently a city that passed a law putting fines to parents that dont do "enough" to work to rub out their kids bullying, this is where these screens are going to take parents if we decide to allow them.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 12:13 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
They wanted to identify significantly "at risk" children so support services could follow up to see if any interventions were needed to help those children, given that the school district has had several student suicides in recent years. But the "at risk" scaled score on this survey was determined by considerably more than the 3 or 4 questions relating to substance use--and student services at Batavia H.S. did reach out to some students, and their parents, based on these survey results. This was an SEL assessment survey, not a "drug use" survey. And there were no complaints about the way the survey results were actually used by the school for these students.


Yes labeling children as at risk children is very helpful and having more and more of a paper trail on those children so the label and the reason for the label are more likely to leak out and bit them on the rear end later in life.

Unless a child is misbehaving in school it is none of the damn school board business to be sorting and labeling children in classifications by using some theory of likely future problems base on surveys where the brights trouble or not trouble children are not going be be honest in fulling out.

Hell we had already had news accounts of children in doing fiction writing assignments having the roof fall on them if there is any violence in their stories.

I just can see the reaction to Edgar Allan Poe if he would had written one of his poems as a child in the current American school systems.

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 12:49 pm
@BillRM,
once kids are labled "at risk" the authorities are free to apply the screws to the parents under the law of SAFETY!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 01:00 pm
@firefly,
Yes Firefly school systems should be given even more power to ruin the lives of students who do not fit the mold by classifying them as at risk children base on unproven theories and assumptions and apply by adults looking to cover their own asses.

Quote:
Students punished for 'dark' writing

© 2004 Student Press Law Center

Curiosity may have killed the cat, but creativity is quickly becoming the Achilles’ heel for high school student authors, who face increased scrutiny over creative works done in and out of school.

Creative writing assignments and personal journals have become an object of concern for many administrators who fear that works which are "dark" or contain violent images are actually threats by students.

At a Minnesota high school, a 17-year-old was arrested Oct. 14 after students found his notebook containing violent and gloomy poetry and similar works on a school computer.

Because police officers said the students at Humboldt High School felt threatened by the writings, the incident was taken very seriously, said St. Paul Police Officer Paul Schnell. He said the works contained references to weapons, seeing others dead, and to the fact that the author felt ostracized and angered by others at school.

"The question becomes one of was there adequate probable cause to make an arrest," Schnell said. "On the basis of what we saw, yes."

The student, who was not named in police reports pleaded guilty in juvenile court to charges of disorderly conduct and was sentenced on Nov. 15. He also has been placed in another area high school.

"We are not unaware of the implications from the standpoint of freedom of speech," Schnell said. "If we didn’t take action, citing free speech, and something did happen, would the question be ‘Why didn’t police at least investigate?’"

Police often find themselves "right where the rub occurs" between defending and infringing upon free speech, he said, but officers would rather be safe instead of sorry.

Minnesota American Civil Liberties Union Executive Director Chuck Samuelson said the school’s response was an overreaction, and while the student’s First Amendment rights may have been violated, these cases are difficult to win.

"Judges give great deference to school officials who claim that the free speech of the student impinged on the school process," he said.

A middle school student in New York was suspended when he took a class assignment too far, officials said. In addition to keeping a journal, a creative writing assignment for his English class, Dylan Finkle began writing a short story modeled after horror films.

The story featured fictional characters named after fellow students at Thompson Middle School. Finkle claims he got permission from students to use their names, but another teacher was unsettled by the graphic murders and sexual situations depicted in the story.

In one scene, the main character, also named Dylan, decapitates his girlfriend upon finding her having sex with another boy. The story ends with Dylan’s death and the question, "Will this be the end of the masked killer? All we know is that true Evil never dies…"

Finkle’s appeal to the commissioner of education was denied. He has since filed a civil suit seeking almost $2 million in damages for violations of his First, Fifth and 14th Amendment rights.

"It’s an estimate of damages in regards to mental anguish," Finkle’s attorney Chris Murray said about the damages. "Ultimately, it comes down to a jury to decide the price tag for him being socially ostracized and [having] his life disrupted."

Murray said the suspension and the school’s handling of the event, including its refusal to transfer the boy to another area school, has made the 11-year-old a "social pariah."

School officials could not be reached for comment.

A Georgia high school sophomore, Rachel Boims, was given a one-year expulsion after a teacher confiscated and read parts of the girl’s private journal about a student who dreams of killing a teacher.

Though the suspension was overturned in late 2003, a month after it was issued, Boims withdrew from Roswell High School because of the negative effects of the situation. She returned later in the semester and is in the initial stages of filing suit against the school, according to her father.

Robert O’Neil, executive director for the Thomas Jefferson Center for Protection of Free Expression, said the most common First Amendment rights violations he sees involve high school students.

The proliferation can be attributed in part to the transition students make from having behavior controlled exclusively by parents to becoming somewhat autonomous, he said.

"These types of things go in cycles from Tinker [v. Des Moines] where things are in ascendancy to Hazelwood [v. Kuhlmeier] where rights dwindle," O’Neil said, citing two U.S. Supreme Court cases that defined the First Amendment rights of students and the student press.

"Secondly, administrators tend to assume – almost like a paramilitary organization – that their ability to maintain discipline and order depends substantially on taking a hard line when an issue first arises," he said. "When the first person does something novel or challenging, he is likely to be caught in the crossfire."

The convergence of these elements makes censorship almost inevitable – but not acceptable – O’Neil said.

firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 01:06 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Illinois Learning Standards

Social/Emotional Learning (SEL) Resources

In 2004 the Illinois State Board of Education adopted standards in social and emotional learning (SEL). Drafting of the 10 SEL standards, along with goals, age-appropriate benchmarks, and performance descriptors, was a collaborative effort between ISBE and the Illinois Children’s Mental Health Partnership with technical support from the Collaborative for Academic, Social, and Emotional Learning (CASEL). ISBE is now focusing on helping educators across the State provide high-quality education in SEL to their students. Those interested in this work often ask a range of questions about SEL standards. We have provided answers to these FAQs by way of orientation to this work.
http://www.isbe.net/ils/social_emotional/resources.htm


This is a description of the Illinois state SEL standards for grades 11 & 12 (Stage J).--with the sort of curricula, teaching, and assignments the school is expected to give students to achieve the state standard goals.
http://www.isbe.net/ils/social_emotional/stage_J/descriptor.htm

Quote:
BHS Social-Emotional Survey

All BHS students will be taking a 34-question survey during their 3rd block class that evaluates their social-emotional perceptions. Please click here by April 17th if you do not want your student to take this assessment.

Why are we doing this? In addition to the Illinois Common Core Learning Standards, school districts are required to provide instruction and monitor student progress on the Illinois Social Emotional Learning (SEL) Standards

Over the past several years, Student Services Staff have reviewed and researched a variety of tools intended to monitor student performance relative to the SEL standards.

What is this assessment? The Behavior Intervention Monitoring Assessment System (BIMAS) was chosen to be utilized to monitor student progress on the SEL standards.
The BIMAS is designed to be used for screening, progress monitoring, outcome
assessment, and program evaluation within the Response to Intervention (RTI)
framework.


How will the results be utilized? Batavia High School will use the BIMAS to monitor students’ progress in the areas of social and emotional development. Results of the BIMAS will be analyzed at a building level to assist staff in planning and implementation of social emotional supports to help all students grow to their fullest potential. It is a systematic process of detecting students who are struggling behaviorally and are at-risk for experiencing a range of negative short- and long-term outcomes. If your child is found to be at risk and is not currently receiving social-emotional supports within the school, a member of the building’s Student Services Team will notify a parent to discuss options for support.

http://bhs.bps101.net/bhs-social-emotional-survey

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 01:11 pm
@BillRM,
conform or be ruined, them be the options. The war on drugs is exhibit A.

life is cheap, we dont mind ruining lives in the least. in earlier times our kind used to burn people at the stake and string people up to sturdy tree limbs.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 01:20 pm
@firefly,
"conduct needs and resources assessment" does not equal " ask children to self identify as criminals without parental consent"

talk about being given an inch but taking a mile instead!
0 Replies
 
 

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