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Is patriotism a form of religion?

 
 
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 09:03 pm
There are similarities:
Reverence for objects such as flags, national seals, etc.
Songs, holidays (holy days), scripted ceremonies

I'm not referring to what seems an adulterous relation between politicians and clergy. That could be another topic.

What do you think?
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Type: Question • Score: 8 • Views: 2,707 • Replies: 27

 
View best answer, chosen by neologist
maxdancona
  Selected Answer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 09:19 pm
@neologist,
Of course patriotism is a form of religion for all the reasons you point out.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 09:43 pm
@neologist,
On the 4th of July, I celebrate the incapacities of government jurisdiction,
how jurisdiction is curtailed n strangled 37 different ways in the Bill of Rights, alone
and the overthrow of the King of America in 1783.

The more government is degraded, the better I celebrate!!!





David
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 09:52 am
@neologist,
They are both significant as cognitive manifestations of evolutionary tribalism.
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 06:02 pm
I always thought of it as more of a cult.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 06:14 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
They are both significant as cognitive manifestations of evolutionary tribalism.
Does it count if u r anti-tribal
and pro-Individualist ?????
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 07:17 pm
I always thought college football was more like a religion than patriotism.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 11:43 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Equally applicable to a member of "the gun tribe" ! Laughing
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 May, 2013 10:54 pm
Is there something resembling a 'god' involved in all this?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 May, 2013 12:45 am
@neologist,
...insofar as there is "sublimation of self to something larger" perhaps.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 May, 2013 06:10 am
@Smileyrius,
Would you care to explain the difference between a cult and a religion?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jun, 2013 01:44 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
Equally applicable to a member of "the gun tribe" ! Laughing
I expect my guns to serve ME,
not the other way around.





David
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jun, 2013 02:05 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You might perhaps think a little about your social (tribal) conditioning with respect to those acquired views. An unrestricted right to possess arms is completely foreign to most Europeans.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jun, 2013 12:49 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
You might perhaps think a little about your social (tribal) conditioning with respect to those acquired views.
I was 9 years old, the first time that I read the 2nd Amendment.
( I had discovered the US Constitution in the back of a history book. )
I almost fell off my chair in surprise, because I remembered
my prior non-access to guns in NY, before I arrived in Arizona at age 8.


fresco wrote:
An unrestricted right to possess arms is completely foreign to most Europeans.
Liberty & Individualism are not native to them.
I have posted many times that at the Foundation of this Republic,
certain matters were explicitly put beyond the reach of the jurisdiction of government.

Government was permitted to come into existence, subject to those disabilities,
e.g., government cannot make u go to Church if u don't want to,
nor choose your opinions for u, nor interfere with your possession of defensive guns.





David
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jun, 2013 12:13 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I admit to ignorance of the history of the US constitution, but it seems to me that as in all legislation there will inevitably exist anachronisms which are no longer fit for modern purpose. Anthropogy abounds with such examples in which so-called "primitive tribes" have now become "civilized". The point is that irrespective of value judgements with respect to the word "civilized", we are all prone to local (tribal) conditioning which is transmitted through the socialization process and re-ified by limguistic/cognitive patterns. Linguistic and cognitive styles are similar to dress styles and can reflect tribal allegiences whether we are conscious of them or not. Perhaps it takes "an outsider" to spot them.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jun, 2013 04:55 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
I admit to ignorance of the history of the US constitution, but it seems to me that as in all legislation there will inevitably exist anachronisms which are no longer fit for modern purpose. Anthropogy abounds with such examples in which so-called "primitive tribes" have now become "civilized". The point is that irrespective of value judgements with respect to the word "civilized", we are all prone to local (tribal) conditioning which is transmitted through the socialization process and re-ified by limguistic/cognitive patterns. Linguistic and cognitive styles are similar to dress styles and can reflect tribal allegiences whether we are conscious of them or not. Perhaps it takes "an outsider" to spot them.
Assuming everything that u said to be true:
the Constitutional Rights of each citizen remain stably intact & enduring,
regardless of what the Europeans believe and regardless of linguistic patterns.

He who is attacked has the right to DEFEND himself n his property.
Legally, only an amendment of the Constitution can affect that.

Like the 18th Amendment, I am confident that repudiation
of the Individual 's right of self defense 'd not be tolerated by the citizenry.

Additionally, if government were allowed to get away with
ANY usurpation of authority, then that precedent wud
void the Constitution in its entirely.
If government can throw out 1 restraint on its power,
then by the same principle, it can throw out ANY restraint on its power
such that its jurisdiction is infinite, and liberty (by right) is reduced to ZERO.

Personal liberty wud be defined by government,
like King Henry VIII throwing bones to his dogs from his banquet table.
We must remain meticulously n scrupulously alert against the enemy: our hireling, government.





David
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 12:01 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Yes...I am aware of the gun lobby argument but that is in essence an example of "cognitive style", since such style includes attitudes to "self" and "property".(Consider for example Marx's dictum "property is theft" for an example of an extreme stylistic contrast.) Concepts of "self" are inextricably bound up with concepts of "others", and similar selves can be considered to be tribal insofar as they operate in according to a common "rationality". Other tribes (European perhaps) look at the relatively appalling figures for US gun crime and shake their heads in disbelief at such "rationality". At the end of the day, all "freedoms" and "rights" are relative to the social responsibilities involved in their maintentance.They are historically defined and have no absolute status.

And note that "absolute claims" are no different to "religious claims" which is the central theme of the OP.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 02:08 am
This is an apt juncture to quote Johnson on patriotism:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 03:07 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
Yes...I am aware of the gun lobby argument
Yes; I am part of that lobby
in that I remain alert n active to harass my representatives
in all governments within whose geographical jurisdiction
I reside, or own realty, with demands that thay keep their
hands off my liberty, as per the Instrument of the existence
of government in America: the US Constitution, in accordance
with their oath of office. I threaten to vote against them,
if thay do not actively support each citizen's freedom
of self defense by use of guns worn on our bodies.
I am energetic in recruiting more vocal participants
in that lobby, especially the youth; I take them shooting
and to dinner at places thay like, where we discuss
anti-socialistic ideas, while we munch.
( Sometimes, I use pictures of Karl marx as gunnery targets; "cognitive style" ? )







fresco wrote:
but that is in essence an example of "cognitive style",
since such style includes attitudes to "self" and "property".
It is more than style to take cognizance of intentional dis-abilities
imposed on government (knowing that personal liberty
and government jurisdiction are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.
We must be ever mindful of our need to keep
the neck of our hireling, government, under
the heavy boot of the Individual citizen, the Creator of government.





fresco wrote:
(Consider for example Marx's dictum "property is theft"
for an example of an extreme stylistic contrast.)
Socialism: the philosophy of larceny; the philosophy of evil.






fresco wrote:
Concepts of "self" are inextricably bound up with concepts of "others",
and similar selves can be considered to be tribal insofar as they operate
in according to a common "rationality".
Regardless, the concept of our intentional debilitation
and dis-empowerment of government,
as a condition of its existence at its creation,
is conclusive.






fresco wrote:
Other tribes (European perhaps) look at the relatively appalling
figures for US gun crime and shake their heads in disbelief at such "rationality".
A lot of the components of those figures
result from disputes over turf for the sale of drugs
among rival gangs. I will not get too upset, if thay take each other out.
(If we were to restore a free market in drugs, as per the early 1900s, that 'd end.)
In any case, what matters are the rights of the Individual
to freely defend himself from the predatory violence
of man or beast, in keeping with the jurisdictional
dis-abilities that we imposed on government.

Additionally, the opinions of aliens are no importance,
however slight. We are sovereign.





fresco wrote:
At the end of the day, all "freedoms" and "rights" are relative
to the social responsibilities involved in their maintentance.
That is false; there are NO "social responsibilities"
other than those prescribed by the Constitution (e.g., taxation).
Freedom consists of the ABSENCE of the jurisdiction
of government.
Anything else is freely voluntary (e.g., sometimes, I give cash
to people who do not expect it, in a spirit of hedonism).







fresco wrote:
They are historically defined and have no absolute status.
Dis-abilities against government, set forth in the Instrument
of its creation have absolute status.

What I celebrate on the 4th of July is how we have crippled
the jurisdiction of government.
That aggrandizes freedom of the Individual.
The glory of government in America is what it CANNOT do.






fresco wrote:
And note that "absolute claims" are no different to "religious claims"
which is the central theme of the OP.
That is false.
Claims can be absolute, regardless of religion.
An atheist can have absolute claims.





David
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 12:20 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Thankyou for illustrating the cognitive style of "the rogue male" whose social status is predicated on the tribalism of others, and whose chances of genetic transmission are therefore negligible. Wink The bottom line is that humans are naturally social primates NOT "frontiersmen". Our species "success" in manipulating the environment comes from communal effort. Such co-operation gives rise to regulation which has an inevitable effect on personal "freedom". It is a small price most of us are willing to pay.

However, this simplistic rejoinder to "the gun lobby" is peripheral to the OP, except to re-iterate my claim that all absolute cogitive styles, whether they be religious, nationalistic, or other shared belief structures are manifestations of...and predicated on...evolutionary tribalism.



 

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