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Atheist vs believer research

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:47 am
@igm,
Oops, igm...you are absolutely correct. I made a mistake. I screwed up with the word order. Apologies.

May I prevail on you to change the order of the words...and respond to the post as though they had been written in the correct order!
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:52 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Oops, igm...you are absolutely correct. I made a mistake. I screwed up with the word order. Apologies.

May I prevail on you to change the order of the words...and respond to the post as though they had been written in the correct order!


Exactly Frank, now you've shown you true colors... pray continue. I'll wipe your ass as well if you like... no of course although you love to dominate... only in your dotage will someone be paid to do that Laughing

Always remember 'word order' is important.. what is word order...?



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:55 am
@igm,


Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5245000)
You appear to have deliberately misunderstood what I've said and refuse to refute my post (the one I have mentioned ad nauseam) so you keep repeating your misunderstanding and expect me to agree that you are correct... um.. no!




Quote:
... then explain what those words mean... the actual meaning not one you've made up.


Hummm...you want me to explain the meaning of words that YOU are using?

Interesting.

Anyway:

Absolute: Not qualified or diminished in any way;

Conceptual: Of, relating to, or based on mental concepts

Reality: (in this context) The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them:
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:56 am
@igm,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5245021)
Frank Apisa wrote:

Oops, igm...you are absolutely correct. I made a mistake. I screwed up with the word order. Apologies.

May I prevail on you to change the order of the words...and respond to the post as though they had been written in the correct order!


Exactly Frank, now you've shown you true colors... pray continue. I'll wipe your ass as well if you like... no of course although you love to dominate... only in your dotage will someone be paid to do that

Always remember 'word order' is important.. what is word order...?


Sure...I'll play.

The order of words???

0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
Not separately! In combination they mean more than the sum of their parts. The prefix 'conceptual' is very important but as you know nothing about the subject, you wouldn't know that, but that has never stopped you creating 'hot air'.

Answer my post or go away… is that clear enough for you?

igm wrote:

igm wrote:

Both science and western philosophy have not found any concepts which convey the absolute or ultimate truth. Every time we examine a concept it falls apart under scrutiny. The building blocks of a concept are the words that make up that concept. Each individual word has no independent meaning it relies on other words for its definition. If the building blocks are meaningless on their own then the collection of words are meaningless and so too the concepts that they represent but the illusion of meaning is created by their interdependence.

Ultimately all concepts are meaningless but conventionally they are useful in our ordinary lives therefore there is no ‘conceptual absolute truth’ .

Refute it Frank but don't just say it's wrong and move on and then say you have refuted it. You need to give reasons i.e. refute what I have said (reprinted above). Go through what I have said and refute it then I'll say, 'You’re correct Frank I've not shown that concepts are only conventionally true. '

If you say something like, 'it's obviously wrong' that is not refuting it but that's what you normally do. Please give a reasoned argument showing what I have said is wrong.

This is how to proceed:
Show an example of how a concept doesn’t fall apart under scrutiny.
Show how a concept is not made up from words as building blocks and these words are not meaningless in isolation.
Show that individual words have a meaning without depending on other words for their definition.
Show that the building blocks of concepts i.e. words if meaningless on their own are nevertheless meaningful when collected together as a concept.
Show that the truth of concepts is not just an illusion based on their interdependence.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:08 am
@igm,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5245023)
Not separately! In combination they mean more than the sum of their parts. The prefix 'conceptual' is very important but as you know nothing about the subject, you wouldn't know that, but that has never stopped you creating 'hot air'.

Answer my post or go away… is that clear enough for you?


You seem to be getting riled up, igm. Doesn't that go against the grain of Buddhism?

Under no circumstances am I "going away."

Once again you are suggesting that I am unknowledgeable...and that I am "creating hot air."

If you have a way to make sense of the comment you attribute to "the Buddha's teachings"...why not put it out rather than going through all these transparent evasions...and indulging in these petty insults?

Are you suggesting that the assertion: "there is no conceptual absolute truth"...is NOT conceptual???

I suggest it IS conceptual.

And since it is saying there is no conceptual absolute truth...well...we've been through this before.

You realize by now that the assertion is illogical. You have no way of making it even appear logical...so you are evading.

I'm wondering if you will ever stop evading...and actually try to deal with the issue.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:17 am
@Frank Apisa,

Semantics Frank... semantics... answer my post.. the one.. that'll be two up from here... or just go away and bother someone else... every second you spend here evading my post is a second closer to your demise.. what a waste of time... answer my post... not with sematics but with... well... here is a part of it:

igm wrote:

Setanta wrote:

You just added to that burden of proof with an unsubstantiated claim that words have no meaning in isolation.


If you check the dictionary are there any words there not defined by other words? Answer: No (not such a burden was it).

So that's my proof. Now you counter with how an individual word has meaning without referring to other words.


And your rebuttle is?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:26 am
@igm,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5245033)

Semantics Frank... semantics... answer my post.. the one.. that'll be two up from here... or just go away and bother someone else... every second you spend here evading my post is a second closer to your demise.. what a waste of time... answer my post... not with sematics but with... well... here is a part of it:


You are the one nitpicking about semantics, igm...I am not. You are the one evading answering questions...I am not.


Quote:
And your rebuttle is?


Why should I rebut something that apparently is a point of contention between you and Setanta?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Why should I rebut something that apparently is a point of contention between you and Setanta?


It's not... you haven't even read my post to you ... you don't even recognize it...

I said in my original post to you, that words have no independent meaning.

You said (in a past post) the burden of proof is with me. Here is my proof:

If you check the dictionary, are there any words there not defined by other words? Answer: No (not such a burden was it).

So that's my proof. Now you counter with, how an individual word has meaning without referring to other words.

And your rebuttal is?

Another wordy excuse to avoid answering my post... no doubt.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:58 am
@igm,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5245054)
Frank Apisa wrote:

Why should I rebut something that apparently is a point of contention between you and Setanta?



It's not... you haven't even read my post to you ... you don't even recognize it...

I said in my original post to you, that words have no independent meaning.


I just went to your ORIGINAL POST to me...and here it is in its entirety:

Quote:
We are already way off topic with these posts, so create a new topic about this and I'll post some of my thoughts on this subject as I hope will others… if you'd like to of course.


Not a word about words having independent meaning.

Your second post to me:


Quote:
Do I believe the attempt to tell you would help you in any way? I'm yet to be convinced from your past posts. If you can convince me then I'd try but I believe it would be a waste of time... both mine and yours... I have of course spotted your recurring argument... you know your agnostic argument.

If you really want my response to your question, PM me. I wish you all the best Frank but my gut says you're not really interested in what I have to say only your replies.


Not a word about words having independent meaning.

Your third post to me:

Quote:
I actually said this:

The goal of Buddhism is to understand that there is no such thing as conceptual ‘absolute truth’,

Sorry Frank but you'll need to restate your question again the word in bold is important and has led you to misquote me and come to the wrong conclusion.

Could I explain to you in a post what this means… come on Frank… you really don’t know anything about Buddhist philosophy do you. It would take years probably… that’s why loving kindness and compassion is taught and the wisdom aspect is introduced gradually to those who have time to study it.

Again, my gut tells me you just want to show how your agnostic argument will work when you replace some of the words for other words.




Not a word about words having independent meaning.

So what are you talking about, igm?????
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 11:07 am
@igm,
If you are crossing the street, and a police officer holds up his hand and says "Stop!"--that word has meaning in isolation, whether or not you follow his order. You lose . . . as always.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 12:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
This (see quote extract below) ... and you know which one I meant... the first one that you have tried to rebut and misunderstood... the one you've been going on and on about... answer my post by first answering the part in bold which I have given the proof of below. You say you have rebutted the whole of what I've said but you haven't even rebutted first part of it yet. You've only misunderstood the whole thing by believing semantics is refutation.

igm wrote:

Both science and western philosophy have not found any concepts which convey the absolute or ultimate truth. Every time we examine a concept it falls apart under scrutiny. The building blocks of a concept are the words that make up that concept. Each individual word has no independent meaning it relies on other words for its definition. If the building blocks are meaningless on their own then the collection of words are meaningless and so too the concepts that they represent but the illusion of meaning is created by their interdependence.

Ultimately all concepts are meaningless but conventionally they are useful in our ordinary lives therefore there is no ‘conceptual absolute truth’ .


I said in my post to you - the very one you are always referring to, that words have no independent meaning.

You said (in a past post) the burden of proof is with me. Here is my proof:

If you check the dictionary, are there any words there not defined by other words? Answer: No (not such a burden was it).

So that's my proof. Now you counter with, how an individual word has meaning without referring to other words.

And your rebuttal is?

Another wordy excuse to avoid answering my post... no doubt.

igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 12:23 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

If you are crossing the street, and a police officer holds up his hand and says "Stop!"--that word has meaning in isolation, whether or not you follow his order. You lose . . . as always.

If the only word that existed in a language was 'Stop' how do you communicate that to someone without them thinking it refers to something else? We don't, we have other words to describe the meaning of that word. If this is true for all words then all words are meaningless without other words to describe them.

How would I even be able to formulate my thoughts about how to explain using gestures that 'stop' means 'stop' my thoughts would be... stop... stop ... stop etc.. Also when the person who saw the gesture thought ‘stop’ how would he know what that thought meant? He needs other words to describe his own thoughts to himself. Your example fails for the reasons I have given.

Try not to say 'You lose' after every exchange it seems childish.

I said that words have no independent meaning.

You said (in a past post) the burden of proof is with me. Here is my proof:

If you check the dictionary, are there any words there not defined by other words? Answer: No (not such a burden was it).

So that's my proof. Now you counter with, how an individual word has meaning without referring to other words.

And your rebuttal is?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 12:55 pm
I have lost track of this thread. I thought we were talking about whether what some random guy in India some 2500 years ago, who may or may not have actually existed, was purported to have said has any relevance to modern life.

My belief is that what this Indian dude said has no more importance that what the Jewish dude said 3500 years ago, or the other Jewish dude said 2000 years ago or the Arab dude said 1400 years ago.

Listening to what some random guy said in a completely different cultural context over 1000 years ago seems rather silly to me. Whether their words are taken in absolute context, or as philosophical conceptual dualism doesn't change that.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 12:58 pm
@igm,
Give me a link to whatever in the hell you are talking about, igm...because you have me completely lost now.

You wrote: "I said in my original post to you, that words have no independent meaning."

I have now conclusively proved that you did not say any such thing in your original post to me...but rather than simply conceding that point, you are telling me that I should have known that when you said "my original post to you"...I should have know that it really did not mean your original post to me...nor the second...nor the third...but some post later on.

When I made a mistake earlier I simply acknowledged that I made a mistake...to which you said rather testily, "Now you are showing your true colors."

Yup...I was showing that when I make a mistake, I acknowledge it. Those are my true colors.

Here, you were shown you made a mistake...and you are trying to blame me for not understand what you meant to say rather than what you actually wrote.

You, igm, are indeed showing your true colors. And they aren't very pretty.

But aside from that:

Earlier you wrote that the Buddha taught that there is no such thing as a “conceptual absolute truth.” The question I have of you is:

Do you have any idea of how the Buddha KNOWS this...or do you suppose the Buddha was just guessing?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 12:59 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I have lost track of this thread. I thought we were talking about whether what some random guy in India some 2500 years ago, who may or may not have actually existed, was purported to have said has any relevance to modern life.

My belief is that what this Indian dude said has no more importance that what the Jewish dude said 3500 years ago, or the other Jewish dude said 2000 years ago or the Arab dude said 1400 years ago.

Listening to what some random guy said in a completely different cultural context over 1000 years ago seems rather silly to me. Whether their words are taken in absolute context, or as philosophical conceptual dualism doesn't change that.


Max...I suspect you are not the only person who has lost track of this thread.

In any case, I've asked igm the question I asked pages ago.

Wonder if it will be answered this time?????
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 01:16 pm
@igm,
I said nothing remotely resembling stop being the only word in the language. You're drifting now. Do you seriously assert that if someone said "stop" to you, you would first canvass all the referential words one might assign to that word? That's feeble even by your already low standards. You're just babbling now.

It might seem childish to you to be told you lose, but it's an accurate description of just how consistently your word games fail. What you said was that no word has meaning in isolation. I provided you an example which refutes that, so you dance and dodge, but the one thing you don't do is come up with a reasonable, plausible objection.

The burden you assumed is the one Frank has been belaboring you with, to demonstrate that there is there is no conceptual absolute truth. Frank, who is not all that good with logic, has in this case pointed out the glaringly obvious contradiction in that. You then assumed the burden of proving that no word has meaning in isolation, but i provided you an example which contradicts you. So you have come up with this absurdity about a dictionary. Do you assert that, before books and dictionaries existed, words had no meaning? Do you assert that for people who lived in illiterate cultures words had no meaning? Do you assert that for people in our cultures who are illiterate, words have no meaning? That's got to be among the top ten silliest attempts at rebuttal i've ever seen.

You simply can't handle contradiction, and especially anything which suggests that Buddhism is not the be-all and end-all of understanding (and, i suppose the path to "oneness" with the cosmos). So you just cobble together more and more silly arguments, and sneer about rebuttals.

You also made some snide remark about a vacuous philosophical diatribe. I pointed out to you that it was no philosophical anything, that it was a reference to the logical fallacy you were attempting to peddle. Down through the ages, it has been painfully obvious that philosophy does quite well without logic--it's a talking shop, a concert for undifferentiated chin music. As Frank has pointed out, you thesis about no absolute conceptual truth logically contradicts itself. You're besotted with the excellence of your philosophy, so much so, that you can't see it's contradictions.

One expects that kind of thing, though, from superstitious people.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 02:16 pm
@Setanta,
Every language starts with a sound (the first word), different sounds stand for the things that will describe that first word along with other symbols, signs and gestures, they all become interdependent but at the start the first word was just a meaningless sound. If that word is meaningless then it's the same for all words in isolation. You Set are wrong but that doesn't matter when you can 'smoke screen' your replies and not back them up with a reasoned argument.

There is nothing remotely religious in what I'm saying it just obviously correct unless you don't want to see that.

You and Frank haven't even tried to understand my argument. If no one else is willing to say that they do then ... it's the Set, Frank and Max show folks!



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 02:52 pm
@igm,
I am not interested in trashing Buddhism in any way, igm...and I think your suggestions that I have headed in that direction are way overblown. I have problems with any philosophical bent that suggests definite answers to Ultimate Questions. Buddhism is just one of many.

You asserted that the Buddha made an assertion that something was so...specifically, that there is no conceptual absolute reality.

That assertion is illogical...it cannot be. It is self-contradictory.

You are, as Setanta ably pointed out, unwilling to acknowledge that it is...even though it is obvious that it is.

Frankly, I think this latest intimation that you will leave the discussion (without ever acknowledging that the assertion is illogical)...makes a hell of a lot more sense than sticking around trying to defend the indefensible.

I applaud this latest move. It is an improvement on what you have done here so far.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 11:28 pm
Sure, Bubba, scuttle away and hide--that's easier than defending a bankrupt position.
0 Replies
 
 

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