5
   

Do humans have intrinsic moral value?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 08:30 am
@rosborne979,
Empathy and Compassion? I don't think so.

A lot of morality is concerned with protecting the right of a privileged class to dominate their neighbors. Morality was designed to keep women in their place in our culture and others. Morality often restricts freedom and provides ways to persecute minority groups, homosexuals for example.

Some moral values have to do with empathy and compassion. But there is a lot more to morality than that.
0 Replies
 
cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 09:24 am
@BillRM,
What ever you say to cover your self now, it was quite obviously a presumption.
Who gives a damn if other animals show "morals", that only goes to prove that humans are even less special than people think they are and this commonality just makes it more likely that morals don't exist. Morals are just complex functions of natural programming, proclaiming "Now there is morals and they do exist" does not make it so.
cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 10:22 am
@BillRM,
Sorry actually, let me pull a small u- turn, I just presumed that you presumed. So actually I suspect that you presumed. Also I don't need to be clear I challenged you on YOUR belief and you countered with a presumption, I wasn't presenting an opinion and there fore had nothing to be clear about.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 11:13 am
@cheeser,
Quote:
commonality just makes it more likely that morals don't exist. Morals are just complex functions of natural programming, proclaiming "Now there is morals and they do exist" does not make it so.


Morals exist and I do not understand your reasoning that because they result from natural processes that is common in many higher animals and not special to humans that make it less likely that morals exist!!!!!!!

There is no duty to show that such a character as having morals need to only applicable to humans.

We humans share many more characters with the higher animals on this planet then not and that fact does not reduce human standing in the world.

At the moment we are the alpha life form on the planet but we still have connections with all other life forms we share the earth with.

Because of the similarity we share with dogs for example we can form emotional bonds with them that in a case in my area of the world had a man attacking a large alligator with his bare hands to save his dog out of the gator jaws.

An of course that go both ways with dogs having been willing to give their lives to protected their humans.

Humans are special in many ways but having morals is not one of those ways.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 11:34 am
@BillRM,
What is a "higher animal"?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 11:34 am
@maxdancona,
a chimp with a bong
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 11:40 am
@djjd62,
How about a turtle with two bongs? (The real question is how exactly you would compare two species).
0 Replies
 
cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 12:45 pm
@BillRM,
No the problem is you arent providing a sufficient definition for morals: if morals are there purely because of natural selection and for the purpose of survival, then that in turn means that they are no different to an act of cannibalism for the purpose of survival. The ends don't justify the means, it doesn't matter what you do, it's the intent and purpose behind it, if the intrinsic purpose is to survive and that's it, then what's the difference? So... Tell me what the difference is then.

Is a man who tries to rape a baby and somehow inadvertently saves someone , good by standard human morals? No it is the intent that matters, the INTENT.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 12:48 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
What is a "higher animal"?


Quote:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/higher+animals

higher animals (high·er an·i·mals)
Syllabification: OnOffDefinition of higher animals
plural noun
animals of relatively advanced or developed characteristics, such as mammals and other vertebrates.
higher animals in other Oxford dictionaries
Definition of higher animals in British & World English dictionary


In this case we are talking about pack animals such as wolves, dogs, lions and humans.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 01:07 pm
@cheeser,
Quote:
for morals: if morals are there purely because of natural selection and for the purpose of survival, then that in turn means that they are no different to an act of cannibalism


As every character of every animal on the planet including human is derived from evolution needs this is silly to say the least.

If you feel that an act of a man jumping into freezing water and saving others at the cost of his own life is the same as an act of cannibalism I have not a lot to say to you.

Other then one act is for the survival of an individual and the other act is taken for the benefit of the tribe and in the one example the tribe was define as the whole human race that happen to be on a jet leaving Washington DC and in the other example the tribe was expansion to cover a pet dog.

Morals is build in as a possible means to deal with life and death situations but it is still up to the human or the animal to weight the desire of personal survival against the pack moral code and pack welfare.

Not everyone will jump into a freezing river to save strangers and not everyone will attack a large predator with bare hands to save a pet dog,.



cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 01:20 pm
@BillRM,
You are still missing the point, even if you were to save the human race that is good by OUR standards, by HUMAN ( or what ever race you're dealing with's) morals. Imagine for a second that you were an immortal being, one that has been around for ever, why the hell would you give a damn about HUMAN morals- you wouldn't which is exactly my point, these acts have no value outside of the context of humanity( or what ever race you're dealing with). And thats where your argument falls down, you fail to provide an objective point of view free of human interests, and taking up a holier than thou point of view by saying "I have not a lot to say to you." is not going to change anything unless you substantiate your argument by giving me a solid connection between humanity and morality.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 03:29 pm
@cheeser,
I do not know why an immortal being would give a **** about humans but then I do not see why humans would give a **** about an immortal being opinion either.

Now as humans and other pack animals had shown that what can be consider a part of the pack can be greatly expanded at times if such a immortal being even if immortal were in need of aid maybe he or she would care.

Human swimmers in trouble had been save by pods of dolphins and humans had return the favor many times also.

Whales trap below thick ice far from open water had have humans breaking breathing holes in the ice so they could reach the open sea. This was done at great cost and some risk to the people doing so.

But once more why would mortal beings care what an immortal being think or not about them?

You keep claiming you do not wish to go to a god point of view but that immortal being example sound like that what you in fact wish to do.

Footnote concerning whales.Groups of humans are earning a living by hunting and killing whales and other humans are placing themselves in harm way to interfere with that hunting and killing of whales as they do not think that the hunting of such high level mammals is a moral thing to do.
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2012 04:15 pm
@Mockingclown,
Quote:
However the level of intrinsic value placed on an animal is in relation to whether if an animals has moral status.


What do you mean by that?
People don't classify pets as how you have put it.
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2012 01:04 am
@aspvenom,
O’ good, I wasn’t the only one confused.
0 Replies
 
cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2012 01:43 am
@BillRM,
No, again, don't presume, in fact the immortal being can be seen as a god but what would that change about my argument, replace God with immortal being in my post and see what it changes, that is to say jack ****.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2012 09:06 am
@cheeser,
cheeser wrote:

Who gives a damn if other animals show "morals", that only goes to prove that humans are even less special than people think they are and this commonality just makes it more likely that morals don't exist. Morals are just complex functions of natural programming, proclaiming "Now there is morals and they do exist" does not make it so.


It seems that you are arguing semantics here. So, you reject the definition of "morals" to mean complex functions of natural programming, and to include other animals' behavior and this commonality with humans, and even acts of cannibalism?

If so, then what do you mean by "morals"?
cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2012 04:55 pm
@InfraBlue,
Thats exactly the point, i dont believe they exist, that is to say actions fueled by reasons that are in turn as a result of some " higher"(good?) purpose. I dont believe there is a scenario in which these could exist. But yes i do believe that all actions fall into different denominations of the need to survive.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Oct, 2012 08:38 pm
@cheeser,
cheeser wrote:
But yes i do believe that all actions fall into different denominations of the need to survive.


So, what do you call that?
cheeser
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Oct, 2012 12:37 am
@InfraBlue,
What do you mean? Are you asking what word I would give it?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Oct, 2012 03:34 pm
@cheeser,
cheeser wrote:

What do you mean? Are you asking what word I would give it?


Yes, although the question mostly rhetorical. What you're describing falls under the term "morals."
 

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