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Proposed Global Ban on Blasphemy

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:06 am
We can start by not being hypocrites.
Here's William Saletan from SLATE

Quote:
How can we ban hate speech against Jews while defending mockery of Muslims?

Jews have too much influence over U.S. foreign policy. Gay men are too promiscuous. Muslims commit too much terrorism. Blacks commit too much crime.

Each of those claims is poorly stated. Each, in its clumsy way, addresses a real problem or concern. And each violates laws against hate speech. In much of what we call the free world, for writing that paragraph, I could be jailed.

Libertarians, cultural conservatives, and racists have complained about these laws for years. But now the problem has turned global. Islamic governments, angered by an anti-Muslim video that provoked protests and riots in their countries, are demanding to know why insulting the Prophet Mohammed is free speech but vilifying Jews and denying the Holocaust isn’t. And we don’t have a good answer.

If we’re going to preach freedom of expression around the world, we have to practice it. We have to scrap our hate-speech laws.

Muslim leaders want us to extend these laws. At this week’s meeting of the U.N. General Assembly, they lobbied for tighter censorship. Egypt’s president said freedom of expression shouldn’t include speech that is “used to incite hatred” or “directed towards one specific religion.” Pakistan’s president urged the “international community” to “criminalize” acts that “endanger world security by misusing freedom of expression.” Yemen’s president called for “international legislation” to suppress speech that “blasphemes the beliefs of nations and defames their figures.” The Arab League’s secretary-general proposed a binding “international legal framework” to “criminalize psychological and spiritual harm” caused by expressions that “insult the beliefs, culture and civilization of others."

President Obama, while condemning the video, met these proposals with a stout defense of free speech. Switzerland’s president agreed: “Freedom of opinion and of expression are core values guaranteed universally which must be protected.” And when a French magazine published cartoons poking fun at Mohammed, the country’s prime minister insisted that French laws protecting free speech extend to caricatures.

This debate between East and West, between respect and pluralism, isn’t a crisis. It’s a stage of global progress. The Arab spring has freed hundreds of millions of Muslims from the political retardation of dictatorship. They’re taking responsibility for governing themselves and their relations with other countries. They’re debating one another and challenging us. And they should, because we’re hypocrites.

From Pakistan to Iran to Saudi Arabia to Egypt to Nigeria to the United Kingdom, Muslims scoff at our rhetoric about free speech. They point to European laws against questioning the Holocaust. Monday on CNN, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad needled British interviewer Piers Morgan: “Why in Europe has it been forbidden for anyone to conduct any research about this event? Why are researchers in prison? … Do you believe in the freedom of thought and ideas, or no?” On Tuesday, Pakistan’s U.N. ambassador, speaking for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, told the U.N. Human Rights Council:

We are all aware of the fact that laws exist in Europe and other countries which impose curbs, for instance, on anti-Semitic speech, Holocaust denial, or racial slurs. We need to acknowledge, once and for all, that Islamophobia in particular and discrimination on the basis of religion and belief are contemporary forms of racism and must be dealt with as such. Not to do so would be a clear example of double standards. Islamophobia has to be treated in law and practice equal to the treatment given to anti-Semitism.

He’s right. Laws throughout Europe forbid any expression that “minimizes,” “trivializes,” “belittles,” “plays down,” “contests,” or “puts in doubt” Nazi crimes. Hungary, Poland, and the Czech Republic extend this prohibition to communist atrocities. These laws carry jail sentences of up to five years. Germany adds two years for anyone who “disparages the memory of a deceased person.”

Hate speech laws go further. Germany punishes anyone found guilty of “insulting” or “defaming segments of the population.” The Netherlands bans anything that “verbally or in writing or image, deliberately offends a group of people because of their race, their religion or beliefs, their hetero- or homosexual orientation or their physical, psychological or mental handicap.” It’s illegal to “insult” such a group in France, to “defame” them in Portugal, to “degrade” them in Denmark, or to “expresses contempt” for them in Sweden. In Switzerland, it’s illegal to “demean” them even with a “gesture.” Canada punishes anyone who “willfully promotes hatred.” The United Kingdom outlaws “insulting words or behavior” that arouse “racial hatred.” Romania forbids the possession of xenophobic “symbols.”

What have these laws produced? Look at the convictions upheld or accepted by the European Court of Human Rights. Four Swedes who distributed leaflets that called homosexuality “deviant” and “morally destructive” and blamed it for AIDS. An Englishman who displayed in his window a 9/11 poster proclaiming, “Islam out of Britain.” A Turk who published two letters from readers angry at the government’s treatment of Kurds. A Frenchman who wrote an article disputing the plausibility of poison gas technology at a Nazi concentration camp.

Look at the defendants rescued by the court. A Dane “convicted of aiding and abetting the dissemination of racist remarks” for making a documentary in which three people “made abusive and derogatory remarks about immigrants and ethnic groups.” A man “convicted of openly inciting the population to hatred” in Turkey by “criticizing secular and democratic principles and openly calling for the introduction of Sharia law.” Another Turkish resident “convicted of disseminating propaganda” after he “criticized the United States’ intervention in Iraq and the solitary confinement of the leader of a terrorist organization.” Two Frenchmen who wrote a newspaper article that “portrayed Marshal Pétain in a favorable light, drawing a veil over his policy of collaboration with the Nazi regime.”

Beyond the court’s docket, you’ll find more prosecutions of dissent. A Swedish pastor convicted of violating hate-speech laws by preaching against homosexuality. A Serb convicted of discrimination for saying, “We are against every gathering where homosexuals are demonstrating in the streets of Belgrade and want to show something, which is a disease, like it is normal.” An Australian columnist convicted of violating the Racial Discrimination Act by suggesting that “there are fair-skinned people in Australia with essentially European ancestry … who, motivated by career opportunities available to Aboriginal people or by political activism, have chosen to falsely identify as Aboriginal.”

My favorite case involves a Frenchman who sought free-speech protection under Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights:

Denis Leroy is a cartoonist. One of his drawings representing the attack on the World Trade Centre was published in a Basque weekly newspaper … with a caption which read: “We have all dreamt of it ... Hamas did it”. Having been sentenced to payment of a fine for “condoning terrorism”, Mr Leroy argued that his freedom of expression had been infringed.

The Court considered that, through his work, the applicant had glorified the violent destruction of American imperialism, expressed moral support for the perpetrators of the attacks of 11 September, commented approvingly on the violence perpetrated against thousands of civilians and diminished the dignity of the victims. Despite the newspaper’s limited circulation, the Court observed that the drawing’s publication had provoked a certain public reaction, capable of stirring up violence and of having a demonstrable impact on public order in the Basque Country. The Court held that there had been no violation of Article 10.

How can you justify prosecuting cases like these while defending cartoonists and video makers who ridicule Mohammed? You can’t. Either you censor both, or you censor neither. Given the choice, I’ll stand with Obama. “Efforts to restrict speech,” he warned the U. N., “can quickly become a tool to silence critics and oppress minorities.”

That principle, borne out by the wretched record of hate-speech prosecutions, is worth defending. But first, we have to live up to it.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:17 am
@Joe Nation,
I have a problem with this guy's "we" in that it doesn't apply to the United States. The motion picture from which the clip was taken was made in the United States. People calling for its censorship are ignoring our principle of freedom of speech. In the United States, you can vilify Jews, Blacks, LGBT people--you can vilify anyone as long as you don't intentionally incite crime.

This joker needs to address European nations. Just about all of the hate speech laws passed in the United States in a flurry of legislation in the 90s has been overturned. I believe i am correct in saying that it only applies in unfavorable mitigation when someone has already been convicted of another crime.

"We" aren't being hypocrites if by we you mean Americans.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:36 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
Holocaust denial, or racial slurs. We need to acknowledge, once and for all, that Islamophobia in particular and discrimination on the basis of religion and belief are contemporary forms of racism and must be dealt with as such. Not to do so would be a clear example of double standards. Islamophobia has to be treated in law and practice equal to the treatment given to anti-Semitism.



Given that in the US we have the 1 amendment we do not have the same problem with so call hate speech laws as EU countries need to deal with.

As far as Muslims not being deal with as the same as Jews under hate speech laws and there being a double standard in the EU that kind of understandable given that there are still Jews with tattoos walking around from the death camps in the middle of Europe.

Next there had not been any Jews of late flying aircrafts into buildings shouting god is great as they do so or blowing up their fellow citizens as some young men did in London not that long ago.

Muslims would be far better off with cleaning up their own house such as not allowing a man who had issue an open hit contract for religion reasons remaining a public officer in a major Muslim state government then worrying about expanding so call hate crime laws.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:40 am
@Joe Nation,
This article expresses how I think about the case, only better. The Innocence of Muslims is hate speech, inciting violence by disparaging a religious group. All Western countries have some regulations to discourage hate speech. Even in the US, which merely tells employers to discourage it where it contributes to a hostile work environment, reasonable people ask that protections against hate speech be broadened.

It is one thing to say that those people shouldn't be granted their wish; I even agree with that. But it's quite another thing to liken them to Mullahs and Taliban, whether they're anti-discrimination activist in the US or leaders of the Arab world. That, they don't deserve. They deserve a "no" that is respectful and reasoned. The "no" that Obama and other Western leaders have given the Arab League hits the right tone.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:49 am
Joe's quote above wrote:
This debate between East and West, between respect and pluralism, isn’t a crisis. It’s a stage of global progress. The Arab spring has freed hundreds of millions of Muslims from the political retardation of dictatorship. They’re taking responsibility for governing themselves and their relations with other countries. They’re debating one another and challenging us. And they should, because we’re hypocrites.

...

How can you justify prosecuting cases like these while defending cartoonists and video makers who ridicule Mohammed? You can’t. Either you censor both, or you censor neither. Given the choice, I’ll stand with Obama. “Efforts to restrict speech,” he warned the U. N., “can quickly become a tool to silence critics and oppress minorities.”


Yes
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:55 am
@JPB,
JPB, who said that?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:55 am
Then there's also this...

Quote:
COX'S BAZAR, Bangladesh - Hundreds of Muslims in Bangladesh burned at least four Buddhist temples and 15 homes of Buddhists on Sunday after complaining that a Buddhist man had insulted Islam, police and residents said.More
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 06:57 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
They deserve a "no" that is respectful and reasoned. The "no" that Obama and other Western leaders have given the Arab League hits the right tone.


They deserve a hell no and that is about it...............

0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 07:00 am
@Thomas,
It's from Joe Nation's quote above.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 07:32 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

inciting violence by disparaging a religious group.


I have an issue with this. How can one person 'disparaging a religious group' be charged with inciting violence? It's one thing to implement bans of publications of ugly thoughts because they're hateful or hurtful, but quite another to blame group violence on one person's comments.

Are we not responsible for our own actions? If you were frothing at the mouth about hating one group or another, I would ignore you. It wouldn't incite me to anything except disgust.

This really bothers me as it's implying none of us are in control of ourselves and we're all susceptible to what we hear and to herd mentality. It's the old 'the devil made me do it' thing.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 07:55 am
@Mame,
Quote:
This really bothers me as it's implying none of us are in control of ourselves and we're all susceptible to what we hear and to herd mentality. It's the old 'the devil made me do it' thing.


The point I were making, in stating that the author of the Turner Diary was not responsible for Timothy McVeigh actions in killings hundreds of men, women and children.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 08:08 am
Quote:
How blasphemy divides the Arab world from the West
(By Graeme Wood, Commentary, Boston Globe, September 30, 2012)

This month of bloody riots against blasphemy in the Muslim world is scheduled to end just as it began: with a provocation. Today, a scattering of atheists and freethinkers will celebrate something called International Blasphemy Rights Day, a coordinated recognition of the freedom to slander any religion or prophet. The day’s most prominent festivities will occur on college campuses, where in the three-year history of the event, students have arranged philosophical panel discussions, showings of blasphemous art, and open-mic nights that welcome speakers whose speech might in another context draw a barrage of rocks or bullets.

If Hallmark makes a card for this particular holiday, it’s unlikely to be sold in the gift shops of Cairo or Benghazi. Those cities are still recovering from reactions to a California-made YouTube video ridiculing the Prophet Mohammed, which caused riots in countries from Libya to Pakistan. It is tempting for observers in the West to write off these eruptions of street-level anger as local and temporary, fanned by religious sectarians and anti-US feeling. But the riots are also symptoms of a bigger clash in understandings of human rights, one taking place at the level of government and UN declarations, with one side defending the freedom to blaspheme, and the other calling for international law to enshrine a freedom from blasphemy.

The controversy over the right to blaspheme—and the counterclaim, by Muslims in particular, of a right not to be subjected to blasphemy—is a key sticking point in relations between the Islamic and non-Islamic worlds. Predominantly Christian societies have, over the course of history, burned or banned their fair share of heretics and blasphemers, not to mention (in very recent times) their share of allegedly blasphemous art. But they have, it seems, come to an agreement that blasphemy is a private matter rather than a legal one.

The Islamic world has, by and large, coalesced around a different view, and can cite international covenants to back its position up. Broadly accepted declarations of human rights do single out freedom of speech and conscience as inalienable, and International Blasphemy Rights Day was founded to help press that case globally. But the same declarations also safeguard countries’ rights to protect communities from the violence that hatred can incite. In many situations, merely to state something that most people find blasphemous is to provoke violence and, according to governments both Islamic and secular, give legitimate cause for censorship.

“Blasphemy” might sound like an old-fashioned word in the West, but it lies at the heart of a very active collision between two rights—the right to speak and think freely, and the right to protect one’s society from violence. When it comes to blasphemous speech, even in open societies like those of Western Europe, it’s far from clear which will prevail.

The one country where freedom to blaspheme is, at this point, legally uncontroversial is the United States. Courts’ interpretation of the First Amendment has protected even the grossest abuse of religion. But we’re an outlier, and one need not travel all the way to Tehran to find a place where blasphemy is potentially criminal. Toronto would be far enough. Canada, like just about all countries in Western Europe, has mechanisms to keep potentially harmful religious speech in check.

The concept of “blasphemy” we use today is the product of three historical stages, according to Austin Dacey, a secular activist who teaches philosophy at the University of Central Florida and who campaigns for an internationally recognized right to blaspheme. First came a period when blasphemy meant a sin against the divine—“a direct verbal affront to the Godhead”—followed by a period when blasphemy was primarily a political problem: Rule by divine right of kings meant that blasphemy amounted to a challenge to the authority of the state. In both cases the standard punishment was death. The rise of the modern secular state led, starting in the 1600s, to the notion of blasphemy as a form of disrespect less against God or the state than against one’s neighbors. It constituted an extreme form of disrespect, and has come today to be seen as a communal sin rather than a personal or political one. (“It’s a relatively new idea,” Dacey says, cautioning that “new” in the context of religious history still means “several centuries old.”)

Only around that time did Europe and the Muslim world really begin to diverge in how they treated blasphemy. But even then, they diverged less than one might think. In 1919, when George Bernard Shaw wrote “All great truths begin as blasphemies,” the line reflected his own Irish godlessness but not the legal systems of the British Isles. The United Kingdom continued to criminalize blasphemy—though only against the Anglican church; Islam was fair game—until 2008, although it rarely bothered to prosecute anyone. (The last successful prosecution, in 1977, targeted the publisher of a poem by James Kirkup about necrophilia between a Roman centurion and the crucified Jesus Christ.)

Today the most active antiblasphemy activists on the global stage are Muslim. Christians and Hindus, too, have reacted vigorously to perceived disrespect, for example by picketing Martin Scorsese’s film “The Last Temptation of Christ,” or attacking and vandalizing Andres Serrano’s photograph “Piss Christ” in a French gallery last year. They have also urged prosecution of blasphemers: In April, Indian skeptic Sanal Edamaruku demonstrated that the “miraculous” flow of water from the base of a statue of Jesus in Bombay was in fact the result of a plugged bathroom drain. He reportedly faces arrest for ridiculing Catholicism. But no Christian response to blasphemy has matched the violence of, say, Muslim protests against Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in 2005, or this month’s bloody riots over the YouTube videos.

That fury has been channeled, with mixed success, into activism at the United Nations and in other international bodies. The Organization of Islamic Cooperation has for years urged its members to take legal action against blasphemy and lobby the United Nations to do the same. They have pointed to provisions in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (first proposed in 1966) that reserve for countries the right to curb religious incitement, and use that provision as a basis for asking the UN General Assembly to adopt an explicit stance against blasphemy. In response, secular advocates like Dacey point out that other international agreements guarantee freedom of speech and conscience. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which since 1948 has been the central enumeration of human rights, explicitly preserves the individual right to speak one’s mind.

If the rights of individuals to speak and the rights of societies to censor look like they are in contradiction, that’s because they are. All over Europe, you’ll find blasphemy laws that attempt to navigate this incompatibility, not between human rights declarations and religion, but within human rights declarations themselves.

The old UK blasphemy law, for example, was stricken from the books not because blasphemy suddenly became accepted, but rather because Muslims demanded equal protection—and got it, through a new law against incitement of religious hatred. Dacey points to Danish law as one of the more restrictive, since in that case even truth is no defense. In Denmark you can be prosecuted for religious incitement, even if you do nothing other than publicly utter demonstrably true facts about a religion.

UN General Assembly resolutions aren’t binding on governments, but they carry moral force, and some Muslim leaders now want to push the international norms further in the antiblasphemy direction. In particular, they see the Mohammed video as essentially a hate crime that happens to enjoy state protection in the West, and would like to see more explicit backing for crackdowns on anti-Muslim provocation.

“The West hasn’t [yet] recognized Islamophobia as a crime,” Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said at a press conference. With Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, he plans to bring a United Nations General Assembly resolution urging the criminalization of blasphemy next week. The UN “needs to mull over international protocol to prevent [blasphemous speech like the YouTube clip] from happening again,” Yudhoyono said.

In speeches at the General Assembly, leaders of Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, and Yemen echoed the sentiments, though secular advocates said opposition from the West—particularly the United States and the United Kingdom—made the resolution unlikely to pass.

In one sense, Muslim advocates of antiblasphemy law can be seen trying to add one more layer to the global understanding of rights: Human rights might trump national law, but Islamic law is allowed to trump both. “That legal stuff is written by man, but our [rights] are written by the Prophet and directed by God,” says Sadat Sadat, a British Muslim bookseller outside the Finsbury Park Mosque, which has been a hub for radical Muslims in London. “If the man who made that movie came out here, within seconds he would be killed. I can guarantee that. The law written on paper does not protect everything.” He added, cautiously, that he himself would not do any killing.

Threats like this one have had the effect of steeling (as well as at times fraying) the nerves of some free-speech advocates. “It’s misframing the issue to ask whether any speech is ‘proper,’ or ‘disrespectful,’ ” says Michael De Dora, policy director of the Center for Inquiry, the secular advocacy group that sponsors and organizes the Blasphemy Day. “People have a right to say a lot of things that are profoundly stupid and wrong.”

He pointed out that anti-incitement laws are even more common, and more easily invoked, in Muslim countries than in Europe. In the Islamic word, not causing offense is widely viewed as a pillar of how societies function. So when intentional provocation occurs, the state is often prepared to react swiftly.

“What you see in these countries is that they might not have blasphemy laws but they do have laws against insulting people’s feelings, because insulting them will incite them to violence,” De Dora said. Merely stating aloud that one is an atheist, for example, might trigger an arrest. “We find that unfortunate.”

When I spoke to De Dora, he had just gotten into a Manhattan yellow cab outside the United Nations, where the Center for Inquiry has observer status as a nongovernmental organization and is lobbying hard against any resolution denouncing incitement. A few blocks later, when he was about to get out of the cab, I heard some impassioned but incomprehensible words from the cabbie, who overheard our chat and wanted to add his thoughts.

Mustafa Mahmoud told me he is from Alexandria, Egypt, but has lived in the United States for 17 years and loves his adopted country. But he said US laws needed to change.

“You can mess with anything,” he said. “But it should be illegal to talk about any religion.”

Would he be willing to let people talk about Jesus? “It should be illegal to let anyone talk about Jesus, unless he’s [working] in the religious field, like a priest. Muslims don’t talk about Jesus this way. People would flip!”

De Dora excused himself from the cab, and Mahmoud let him go without further argument. De Dora did, however, strike a slightly more conciliatory tone. “We’re not urging anyone to go blaspheme,” he said, although he continued to advocate an absolute right to do so. “As someone who’s interested in communicating ideas, the last thing you want to do is insult someone’s feelings, because then they won’t be as receptive to your ideas.”
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 08:10 am
@Mame,
Exactly!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 08:29 am
One question that come to mind is with the internet how in the hell would you enforce such a ban in the first place?

Only fools allow themselves open to being track down by ISP addresses or in any case there is no reason to allow yourself to be back track.

So even with a universal law it could not be enforce.

aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 08:31 am
@BillRM,
Not to mention the cost at tracking down people who are hard to find. Probably has a wish to increase the debt even more.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 08:53 am
@aspvenom,
Quote:
Not to mention the cost at tracking down people who are hard to find. Probably has a wish to increase the debt even more.


I just created an encrypted pathway over the tor network between able2know and my home in Miami that went from Miami to Paris to England to the US state of PA and then to the Able2Know servers.

Now just try to back track to an ISP address in the Miami area!!!!!!!!

That is just one technology available to protected your privacy on the internet.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 04:06 pm
@BillRM,
Wonderful security protocol you're using there. (Insert rolly-eyed emoticon here.)
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 04:17 pm
I think they need to define 'incitement'. If you're at a dinner party and you make a negative comment about a religion and someone gets upset and kicks over a chair on their way out the door, is that incitement? What about if someone agrees with you and goes on a verbal tangent - is that incitement? If a fight starts because of what you said, have you incited it? Are you responsible for the fight because you made a comment?

Don't you think this is a little ridiculous in the extreme?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 04:44 pm
@Mame,
That may be incitement, but it is not criminal unless there is evidence that you actually intended to incite violence. You need to have told a third party beforehand that you intend to provoke certain people into doing something violent by insulting their religion.
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Sun 30 Sep, 2012 04:50 pm
@wandeljw,
So what if you INTEND to incite but nobody bites? Aren't you still guilty of intent to incite?

This is a ridiculous conversation Smile
 

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