9
   

Affirmative Action in the US: is it still needed?

 
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 09:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I don't give much credence to "income" to determine success in school. Many people I know including my own family came from very modest backgrounds.

Most of us worked ourselves through college, and were relatively successful in our careers. Our children are all college educated with professional careers.

That's the success story of this country, and that's the reason why more people want to immigrate to the US.


More income gives more people more of a head start. Income certainly does factor into it.

Many families are so poor they can't even conceive of the notion of attending post-secondary schools. They work to eat and sometimes don't even get to do that well.

Your last sentence strikes me as arrogant. Much 'success' in the US was due to people who had NO education, and not everybody wants to immigrate to become college-educated professionals.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 09:55 am
@Mame,
It may sound arrogant to you, but those are facts that cannot be denied.

Our parents were too poor to help us pay for our college education. Take it from there.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:09 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Most of us worked ourselves through college, and were relatively successful in our careers. Our children are all college educated with professional careers.

That's the success story of this country, and that's the reason why more people want to immigrate to the US.


times have changed since you and your children were educated

that's why, if you look at the research, you see the narrowing of the gap and then the widening of the gap

~~~

one of the really striking differences is on the income side - families with incomes over $220,000 have children whose test scores are significantly higher than families than lower incomes. They outperform whites/Asians as a group.

"Studying" isn't enough. You need to be in a good neighbourhood with good schools with well-to-do parents, and you apparently need to live a nice white lifestyle to write the right kind of essay.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:11 am
@ehBeth,
Not from where I'm sitting; college grads with the right skills are being hired here in Silicon Valley with a starting salary of $125,000. They don't look at the applicant's background.

Mame
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
You all had expectations. Many families in the US (47%, according to Romney) are too poor to pay income tax. Their expectations are simply to EAT. Going to college is so far outside their realm it's not even in their vocabulary. That's the arrogant part.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:21 am
@Mame,
You wrote,
Quote:
You all had expectations.


Where did that come from? I was never expected by our mother to do well in school. My father died when I was two years old. What motivated me was the fact that the USAF assigned me to work with nuclear weapons in the late fifties, and the officers always treated me well. After my discharge, I spent over a year in Chicago to work at odd jobs. I drove back to California to visit family and friends, when I learned that my contemporaries were attending college. That's when I decided to continue my education.

All my siblings worked or got loans to attend college/medical school/law school.

Although our economy is now in the Great Recession, many are pursuing their college education which is the right choice. Our economy is slowly in recovery, and the increase in home values and consumer spending on cars and vacations shows we're on the right tract.

Those who do not give up hope will eventually be rewarded.

That's all we have for our future.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:34 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
They don't look at the applicant's background.


the right background is what got them into college. the right background these days is parents with money - it results in better test scores than white or asian.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:36 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Our parents were too poor to help us pay for our college education. Take it from there.


you need to look at what's going on now, not rely on what happened decades ago.

1. if you are poor now, it is less likely that you will get into university than a student from a well-to-do family

cicerone imposter wrote:
facts that cannot be denied


2. The rate of increase in the cost of post-secondary education has escalated in the past decade

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/story/2012-06-13/college-costs-surge/55568278/1

Quote:
Between 2001-02 and 2011-12, in-state tuition and fees at public, four-year colleges increased at an average rate of 5.6% each year, according to the College Board's 2011 report on trends in higher education pricing. That rate is higher than in previous decades: In the 1980s, tuition increased at about 4.5% each year, and in the 1990s at 3.2%.


Quote:
The average tuition at a four-year public university climbed 15% between 2008 and 2010, fueled by state budget cuts for higher education and increases of 40% and more at universities in states like Georgia, Arizona and California.



Quote:
At Full Sail University, a film and art school in central Florida, the average price of tuition, fees, books, and other expenses totals $43,990, even when grants and scholarships are factored in. The average net price for an incoming Harvard student: $18,277, according to the department. Net price is cost of attendance minus grant and scholarship aid.



http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=76

Quote:
Between 2000–01 and 2010–11, prices for undergraduate tuition, room, and board at public institutions rose 42 percent, and prices at private not-for-profit institutions rose 31 percent, after adjustment for inflation.



The gap in test results is growing between the rich and the poor - which effects who gets into university if test results are the only thing considered.

The increased costs also impact who can go to university after they make it through the admissions process. I'm proud of the fact that I paid for almost all of my university education myself. I worked hard at work terms as well as at jobs during the school semester. It wouldn't be enough now - even if I earned the adjusted-for-inflation amounts now that I earned then.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Not from where I'm sitting


look past the end of your nose
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:37 am
@ehBeth,
What ratio rich kids represent college kids at the premier colleges and universities of this country? What does that prove - except to the likes of Romney et al? How successful are they, relatively speaking?

Anything like GW Bush? LOL

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 10:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
All my siblings worked or got loans to attend college/medical school/law school.


That's terrific.

~~~

Today's students need a lot more money proportionally than your siblings needed, or I needed, to get through university.

Salaries are not going up at the rate that educational costs have been for the past decade.

And back to the topic of the thread, there's a good chance we now wouldn't make it to university without being in the the best $ schools in the best $ neighbourhoods. Poor only equals success on an exceptional basis.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 11:01 am
@ehBeth,
You wrote,
Quote:
Today's students need a lot more money proportionally than your siblings needed, or I needed, to get through university.

Salaries are not going up at the rate that educational costs have been for the past decade.


Most of us are aware of all this. If you have bothered to read my posts, I've said as much often.

You also wrote,
Quote:
And back to the topic of the thread, there's a good chance we now wouldn't make it to university without being in the the best $ schools in the best $ neighbourhoods. Poor only equals success on an exceptional basis.


It's not being poor that holds many good students from going to college, because many offer scholarships to outstanding students. If not scholarships, they will need to get loans like all the other "poor" students now attending college.

That's the reason why I keep repeating that the path to success is "studying."

Anecdote: A friend of mine, Richard Pimentel, taught Life Sciences at Cal Poly, a premier university in California. His parents had a forth grade education, and he worked himself through college to earn his PhD. I have met many like him, and many students today will repeat that story.



Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:00 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Quotas have been outlawed since the Supreme Court's decision in Regents v. Bakke in 1978. That, therefore, is a non-issue.

In Bakke, the Supreme Court upheld the University of California's preference for Black applicants. The University said it wanted to use race as a tie breaker when there were more qualified applicants than slots. The University downplayed the role of race in its assignment process, making it a minor thing. But in practice, of course, universities control the bar that applicants have to jump to count as "qualified". By setting this bar low, they can create as great a surplus of "qualified students" as they want, thereby assigning as many slots as they want to students from preferred minorities. If my memory serves, Bakke had nothing to say about that part of it. I don't know if subsequent Supreme Court decisions addressed the issue.

joefromchicago wrote:
Who decides what constitutes "low quality" or "high quality?" An SAT score isn't a measure of "quality," it's a somewhat dubious prediction of how well a student will perform in college. Essays and recommendations are even less reliable.

But they are both standards, however imperfect, that do not discriminate by race and gender. No standard is ever going to be perfect, and if universities find better standards than those, good for them! For purposes of this discussion, I'll settle for the best standard universities can find that doesn't discriminate by race gender, and so forth.

Thomas wrote:
Do you keep the exam, or do you try to find ways to recruit minority officers, even if those candidates would otherwise be rejected because of the exam?

It depends. Why did the minority applicants fail the exam?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:00 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
how do you propose that colour/gender/race-blind evaluation be done? the existing system of testing is not neutral. it's got bias built right into it.

How has it got bias built right into it? Can you be more specific?
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:02 pm
@ehBeth,
If this is the case then please explain the "Dreamers". All these poor illegal immigrants are going to school. It is at odds with what you are saying.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:09 pm
@Thomas,
google is your friend

(some of the info is in links I've already posted but this is a vast area of concern and study in the U.S.)
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:09 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

If this is the case then please explain the "Dreamers". All these poor illegal immigrants are going to school. It is at odds with what you are saying.


ask the researchers in the field
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:10 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
It depends. Why did the minority applicants fail the exam?


c'mon

at least pretend you're interested enough to look into it
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:11 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Who decides what constitutes "low quality" or "high quality?" An SAT score isn't a measure of "quality," it's a somewhat dubious prediction of how well a student will perform in college. Essays and recommendations are even less reliable.


But they are both standards, however imperfect, that do not discriminate by race and gender.


well now we know you didn't follow any of the links I posted
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2012 02:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
That's the reason why I keep repeating that the path to success is "studying."


you can repeat it all you want - it doesn't change the real-life research outcomes
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 06/26/2019 at 11:48:59