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How old was the Virgin Mary when she gave birth to Jesus?

 
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 04:15 pm
I want to remind that the Holy Virgin has got pregnant as a result of the Immaculate Conception, without any sexual intercourse with a male.[/i][/color] Therefore, there is no connection between Her age when She gave birth to the Savior, and the stance of Church toward teenagers' sex.
Some schoolgirls get pregnant obviously not as a result of contact with the Holy Spirit, but having had sex with some horny peers (in the best case, sometimes adult partners are involved), and I do not think that any religion should advocate this.
ronmac60
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 05:12 pm
With no disrespect to those, in fact all, who choose to live in the 13th century, I was shocked to see that nobody mentioned that
biblical scholars have long ago dismissed the literal interprestation of the virgin birth of Jesus.

Many liberal Christian denominaions have either purged this curious teaching from their body of philosophy or conveniently ignore the issue altogether.

If anyone wants to take the time to explore the mythological context from which the virgin birth story derives you would only have to examine the authentic documentation of the pre-civilized world of ancient Mesopotania. From 1000 BC the definition of the
phrase "holy virgin" meant"unmarried" and not "physical virginity".

The ancient Hebrews called the children of these priestesses of
Ishtar "bathur" which literally meant "virgin-born".

But, as we all know the early religious translations were in Greek and there is NO equivalent Greek word for "bathur". Instead the word "parthenioi" was used but this word means physical, not
spiritual virginity.

This has been explained in the breifest way so as not to be tedious,
as many religious subjects get to be.

Suffice to say that ecclesistical scholars are in general agreement
of this enlightened interpretation.

Those who are not willing to broaden their religious education by not acknowledging this teaching have every right to remain in
the mythical past, just as those who still believe the sun goes around the earth every day and that the earth is flat have every right to believe so.
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Misti26
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 09:58 pm
Only Matthew and Luke tell of the Birth and Childhood of Jesus, each narrating different incidents.

Mary, for the first three months following her visit by the heavenly messenger, was away at Elisabeth's (Luke 1:36). When she returned to Nazareth, and Joseph learned of her condition, it must have filled him with "strange and agonized perplexity." But he was a good man, and disposed to protect Mary's name from what he supposed would be public disgrace or worse. Then the angel appeared to him, and explained. He still had to keep the family secret, to avoid scandal, for nobody would have believed Mary's story.

Later, when Jesus' Divine Nature became certified by his Miracles and his Resurrection from the dead, then Mary could speak freely of her heavenly secret and the Supernatural Conception of her child.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 10:07 pm
A common misconception is that the Immaculate Conception means something to do with the Virgin Birth.

In fact, Catholic Doctrine says that Mary was the Immaculate Conception... she was conceived free of sin, etc. so that she could become the holy vessel for the Christ. That is why the Angel Gabriel addressed her as "Mary, Full of Grace."
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 10:46 am
Misti: Thanks for the synopsis - it was very well described.
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 10:47 am
Piffka: Thanks for your comments about the Catholic doctrinal viewpoint on the Immaculate Conception - it was most informative. Smile
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 08:55 pm
You are certainly welcome. It was a surprise for me to learn that as well, though it has been several years ago. I had to go back to the Catholic Encylopedia to see why... it is a fairly complicated thing and includes references in the Old Testament as well as how she was treated by the angels and her later Assumption into heaven.
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 06:44 am
Piffka:
I tracked down the following article on the Immaculate Conception, which is reproduced here in full:

Immaculate Conception
THE DOCTRINE


In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception." [/color]
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 06:53 am
Piffka:

Here is the so-called Proof Texts that are quoted in the Catholic Encyclopedia for the Immaculate Conception:

PROOF FROM SCRIPTURE

Genesis 3:15


No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent's head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. God puts enmity between her and Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan. The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.

Luke 1:28

The salutation of the angel Gabriel -- chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma.

Other texts

From the texts Proverbs 8 and Ecclesiasticus 24 (which exalt the Wisdom of God and which in the liturgy are applied to Mary, the most beautiful work of God's Wisdom), or from the Canticle of Canticles (4:7, "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee"), no theological conclusion can be drawn. These passages, applied to the Mother of God, may be readily understood by those who know the privilege of Mary, but do not avail to prove the doctrine dogmatically, and are therefore omitted from the Constitution "Ineffabilis Deus". For the theologian it is a matter of conscience not to take an extreme position by applying to a creature texts which might imply the prerogatives of God.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 07:05 am
Don't be messin' wit' my Lord and Savior's Virgin Birth now!!

ronmac and other's similarly inclined.

I am amused that some choose to live in the antediluvian time and deny God completely.

Funny, isn't it?
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 11:24 am
Well, there is more, Bibliophile, but we all believe what we believe.

To me, it is a wonderful way of thinking... proving that at least one woman doesn't need Christian enmity because she was born without sin. Many Catholic women are drawn to the perfection of Mary as the ideal mother, wife and woman.

Here's a little of the early controversy of Mary. Her Veneration, however, has a long and noble set of traditions:

"It is St. Irenaeus (2nd C.) more especially who has deserved to be called the first theologian of the Virgin Mother. Thus he has drawn out the parallel between Eve and Mary, urging that, "as the former was led astray by an angel's discourse to fly from God after transgressing His word, so the latter by an angel's discourse had the Gospel preached unto her that she might bear God, obeying His word. And if the former had disobeyed God, yet the other was persuaded to obey God: that the Virgin Mary might become an advocate for the virgin Eve. And as mankind was bound unto death through a virgin, it is saved a through virgin; by the obedience of a virgin the disobedience of a virgin is compensated" (Irenaeus, V, 19). No one again disputes that the clause "born of the Virgin Mary" formed part of the primitive redaction of the Creed, and the language of Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, etc., is in thorough conformity with that of Irenaeus; further, though writers like Tertullian, Hevidius, and possibly Hegesippus disputed the perpetual virginity of Mary, their more orthodox contemporaries affirmed it.

"It was natural then that in this atmosphere we should find a continually developing veneration for the sanctity and exalted privileges of Mary. In the paintings of the catacombs more particularly, we appreciate the exceptional position that she began, from an early period, to occupy in the thoughts of the faithful. Some of these frescoes, representing the prophecy of Isaias, are believed to date from the first half of the second century. Three others which represent the adoration of the Magi are a century later. There is also a remarkable but very much mutilated bas-relief, found at Carthage, which may be probably assigned to the time of Constantine.

"More startling is the evidence of certain apocryphal writings, notably that of the so-called Gospel of St. James, or "Protevangelion." The earlier portion of this, which evinces a deep veneration for the purity and sanctity of the Blessed Virgin, and which affirms her virginity in partu et post partum, is generally considered to be a work of the second century. Similarly, certain interpolated passages found in the Sibylline Oracles, passages which probably date from the third century, show an equal preoccupation with the dominant role played by the Blessed Virgin in the work of redemption (see especially II, 311-12, and VIII, 357-479). The first of these passages apparently assigns to the intercession "of the Holy Virgin" the obtaining of the boon of seven days of eternity that men may find time for repentance (cf. the Fourth Book of Esdras, vii, 28-33). Further, it is quite likely that the mention of the Blessed Virgin in the intercessions of the diptychs of the liturgy goes back to the days before the Council of Nicaea, but we have no definite evidence upon the point, and the same must be said of any form of direct invocation, even for purposes of private devotion.

(The Age of the Fathers)

"The existence of the obscure sect of the Collyridians, whom St. Epiphanius (d. 403) denounces for their sacrificial offering of cakes to Mary, may fairly be held to prove that even before the Council of Ephesus there was a popular veneration for the Virgin Mother which threatened to run extravagant lengths. Hence Epiphanius laid down the rule: "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary" (ten Marian medeis prosknueito)."

piffka's note... Of course, after a while THAT particularly anti-female rule was left by the wayside. <smile>
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Dec, 2002 07:12 am
Please don't misunderstand my reasons for posting information here about The Virgin Mary, The Immaculate Conception or any other reference material about Catholic beliefs.

I have posted this information as a mens of broadening this discussion, in my capacity as Forum Guide, but without any implication that such information reflects my own personal beliefs. Smile
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Shirleeeee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 01:11 am
How old was Mary when she gave birth to Jesus?
littlek wrote:
Wasn't she supposed to be around 30?


I agree that Mary was older than most people do, even older than 30.
The reason why I believe that is what Luke 1:36 says, "Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has "also" conceived a son in her old age, and this is the 6th month for her who was called barren."

Sounds like Mary was also old like her relative Elizabeth. I know they were both pregnant but when "also conceived a son in her old age", is used I don't know how that cannot mean in addition to. So Elizabeth has in addition to you Mary conceived a son in her old age. Most people say it only meant the having a baby part, but I can't ignore in her old age part. Sarah was old and had a Miracle baby. Elizabeth was old and had John the Baptist and now Mary.
Question
Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2004 11:21 am
I don't think the "also" in Luke 1:36 is referring to Mary's age AGE, but her PREGNANCY.
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DJ Tom Selfridges
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 10:20 am
how about, religion is myths and legends that people realised they could control people with. people should put trust in themselves and the people around them instead of imaginary characters we'd all be a lot better off
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 10:29 am
Modern liberal theologians have generally rejected the virgin birth, and classify it as a religious myth that was added to Christian belief in the late first century CE. Its purpose was to make the religion more competitive with contemporary Pagan religions in the Mediterranean region, most of whom featured a virgin birth of their founder.

About 83% of American adults believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. This exceeds the total number of American adults who identify themselves as Christian or Muslim. In fact, 47% of non-Christian adults also believe in the virgin birth. That's just weird!
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 10:14 am
Dys: 98.47% of statistics are fabricated!
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 10:59 am
So I'm guessing (not being a christian and all) that it all goes back to Eve and that damn fruit of knowledge stuff. Eve remained "pure" until she ate of the tree of knowledge which I assume means that regardless of the "facts" she was pure until she gained knowledge that she was no longer pure. It all kinda ties in with "knowledge" of personal death as well since Eve also gained "knowledge" that she was equiped with all the parts necessary for bi-sexual reproduction (not an amoeba) Leaves me with the message that "sex kills" God indeed works in mysterious ways.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 10:59 am
ps. Mary was 13 when she gave birth.
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Bibliophile the BibleGuru
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 11:05 am
dyslexia wrote:
ps. Mary was 13 when she gave birth.


Sounds reasonable to me.
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