Are Horoscopes religion?

Eva, Please, I asked you not to reveal the details of the WX Channelites!!

I like Adrian's 4th :
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

But I would add : based on irrationality which is so

: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs based on irrationality which is held to with ardor and faith.

Now you are going to make me write something serious. Okay. All of these behaviors, the rituals, the rubrics, are about finding some of your own power in the universe, some modicum of control over your own being. People need to feel secure. [What was it someone wrote on another thread about the universal element of all people is fear? I would agree, but I would add that the universal antidote for fear is love.]

Human beings, before they discover love, have to deal with fear all the time. Religions of all stripes offer ways to feel safe, to protect oneself from the elements of the universe because the universe doesn't seem to care one bit if any of us exist for another moment. Guess what? It dosen't. That's pretty scary. So we compensate, we invent, we imagine all kinds of protectors, intercessionaries, angels, saints and gods. We try to buy our safety through rituals just like Eva's friend, and we try to bring about our power to control things by having faith in a irrational system.

And it works. People do feel better knowing they are loved by an all powerful God, even though he's a made up thing. People feel safer believing that a certain stone or a sign or a shape of clouds means something about the future even if it's predicting something bad is going to happen.

But it's all an illusion. The believers live their lives surrounded by the uncaring universe thinking that it does care and they never connect with the idea that they themselves have always had the power of themselves within themselves. Okay. That's starting to sound silly like one of those fakey "make a million dollars in no money down real estate' seminars but I'm trying to hurry here, I'm late. So I'll just say this: Within each human is the power to make life have meaning. It's not from outside of us. It's in us from the moment we are born. And all of these behaviors, the rituals, the rubrics are distractions from knowing the truth.

whew.

Joe

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Joe Nation wrote:

So I'll just say this: Within each human is the power to make life have meaning. It's not from outside of us. It's in us from the moment we are born.

Yes. At the very least, it's a chance to try.

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I do not think anyone today would look upon astrology as science. Reading horoscope is a constructive activity of spirit and will be characterized as sub-religious.

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Okay, I'm going to reply even though this is probably a mistake. I don't like disagreeing with my good friend, Joe, and I'm nowhere near as good at expressing my thoughts. So please forgive me in advance, Joe.

We have a basic difference here. I agree with a great deal of what you say. But I disagree with your basic tenet of "based on irrationality." Many "true believers" have put a great deal of rational thought into their belief system. There are many highly intelligent scholars who teach religion in seminaries and universities around the world. History's deepest philosophers have wrestled with the subject of religion and man's place in the cosmos. I am none of the above, but I recognize these to be very rational people.

So I prefer Adrian's original definition.

People are by nature emotional beings. It is damn near impossible for people to discuss anything without feelings being interjected. Regardless of the subject matter. However, just because people cannot discuss a subject (sex, politics, religion, whatever) without becoming emotional does NOT mean that the subject itself is irrational.

I do not think mankind has the intellectual capacity to understand everything about the universe in which we exist. Human history is one of progressively uncovering truth. Next year we may discover how to cure a deadly disease. The year after that, we may discover there was once life on Mars. There are still many areas we know very little about.

Is it not possible...just possible...that there are forces at work in the universe which we cannot comprehend? And if there is an intelligence behind it all...IF...would it not be possible that that intelligence could make itself known to humans on a level that the humans at that point in their development would be able to understand? I say the possibility exists.

These are basic questions. Rational questions...from which religion springs.

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Eva wrote:

Okay, I'm going to reply even though this is probably a mistake. I don't like disagreeing with my good friend, Joe, and I'm nowhere near as good at expressing my thoughts. So please forgive me in advance, Joe.

We have a basic difference here. I agree with a great deal of what you say. But I disagree with your basic tenet of "based on irrationality." Many "true believers" have put a great deal of rational thought into their belief system. There are many highly intelligent scholars who teach religion in seminaries and universities around the world. History's deepest philosophers have wrestled with the subject of religion and man's place in the cosmos. I am none of the above, but I recognize these to be very rational people.

So I prefer Adrian's original definition.

People are by nature emotional beings. It is damn near impossible for people to discuss anything without feelings being interjected. Regardless of the subject matter. However, just because people cannot discuss a subject (sex, politics, religion, whatever) without becoming emotional does NOT mean that the subject itself is irrational.

I do not think mankind has the intellectual capacity to understand everything about the universe in which we exist. Human history is one of progressively uncovering truth. Next year we may discover how to cure a deadly disease. The year after that, we may discover there was once life on Mars. There are still many areas we know very little about.

Is it not possible...just possible...that there are forces at work in the universe which we cannot comprehend? And if there is an intelligence behind it all...IF...would it not be possible that that intelligence could make itself known to humans on a level that the humans at that point in their development would be able to understand? I say the possibility exists.

These are basic questions. Rational questions...from which religion springs.

I agree with you Eva, and I think that was well stated. Everything you said is correct. But, I will have to say that religion is most often irrational - because it is used as a political use for control. I am highly skeptical that a g-d or g-ds have manifested themselves on this planet and told us (in a book) how to conduct our lives. Those are the words of men wanting to direct society.
There is nothing inherently irrational in the concept of g-d. There could be a creator of mankind, of the universe, or just earth, although not necessarily manifest in the ways described by humans.

But it is irrational to believe in individual dieties (Jesus, Zeus, Inanna) who are said to have directly impacted the earth at some point in history (usually in human or animal form, usually bearing a creation story and/or moral guideline.) I think - historically speaking - it seems pretty evident that these creations spring from the human mind and not from reality. Lots of people believe in Jesus, but at one point in time lots of people believed in Pharoh, or rain g-desses to whom they had to make virgin sacrifices. We are not that different from our ancestors - you can compare Jesus to Apollo or the devil to Horus. It is irrational to believe in these things, but I don't think it is necessary or proper for humans to be rational all of the time. Good things can come out of non-logical processes - emotions, social interaction, creative fiction, art, random-associative invention. I even like religion (for it's rich cultural impact, social support) - when it doesn't interfere with the way I live my life, and human advances such as science and human rights issues.

I'm going to have to disagree with Joe Nation, religion is separate from superstition and pseudoscience, although they are related.

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Quote:

Is it not possible...just possible...that there are forces at work in the universe which we cannot comprehend? And if there is an intelligence behind it all...IF...would it not be possible that that intelligence could make itself known to humans on a level that the humans at that point in their development would be able to understand? I say the possibility exists.

Larry slumped down on the bench outside of Godcraft 401:Rational Being Creation. He put his hands over his eye.
"How'd your team do?" asked Miranda standing over him. "That bad?"
"We got a F for the quarter, that's how we did." Larry stamped his foot hard.
"An F? What went wrong, great one?" Eddie, Miranda's creepy junior year boyfriend chimed in."
Larry took his hands off his face and gave Eddie a long look. He turned to Miranda.
"They, the creatures, the rational creatures, whom we made to be able to exist on their own, keep killing each other."
"Even now? That project is a couple of hundred million years old, right?"
"Yup, Eduardo and I and Tommy and Melissa set the whole thing in motion right at the beginning of the semester."
"So what if they do die? "said Eddie, picking at his noses, "Don't they just morph into seawater and start over?"
"Not in Rational Being, dweebo. They just die. You can use their elements to like make more plants and **** but the creatures they were only exist once."
"So?"
Larry let out a long sigh.
"Um, Eddie sweetheart, rational beings shouldn't kill each other, it's not rational. On your project level, creatures can kill for all kinds of things food, protection, territory, but in Senior Year you have make a universe in balance."
"I am going to so hate Senior Year."
'From what Miranda tells me you're going to be a Junior next year again so why worry?
Eddie kicked Larry. "Hey, my project's going fine. What happened to yours, allgreatandpowerful?"
"Yeah, what did happen?" asked Miranda.
"Okay, I think it's Tommy and Eduardo's fault. We build this system, okay? And we give the creatures all the tools they need, we went through the list one at a time, okay?, intelligence, love, memory, hope, the whole thing just like Dr. Emory writes it out. And we let it go and things start out really well."
"Yeah, yeah, get to the screwup. Or should I say screwups?"
"Have you been talking to Melissa?"
"Maybe." Miranda gave Eddie the eye.
Larry turned to Miranda.
"Okay, it was Tommy's idea. Because our creatures were still running around herding animals while Woody's group had a bunch traveling between worlds by telepathy already, and your team had what, that universal language thing."
"Music."
"Well, we had rudimentary music, they just weren't using it to communicate with other worlds. So anyway, I guess we decided to go with Tommy's idea and manifest ourselves a little."
"Oh, no, that's a violation."
"I know. but we thought if we just tweaked them, you know, gave them a little peek at universal balance, they'd get it, you know?"
"So what did they get?"
"Well, they didn't get universal balance, they got, I don't know how to say it"
" They went wacko."
" Yes. Thank you, Eddie, yes, they went wacko."
"What do you mean?"
"Well, let's see. About two hundred thousand years ago, Eduardo made his little tweaks and Tommy manifested himself a couple of times and since then they, the creatures, have created, ha ha, they have created, what irony, some two thousand points of separation. They classify themselves by skin tone, can you believe it? They separate by religions, there's a couple hundred of them, all knowing the truth as it is, and then there's the wars over territory and property. They kill each other over boundaries, over scientific discoveries, over political ideologies and more. I can't tell you how many languages they speak. They speak, but not to each other."
"So what are you going to do?"
"Well, there's about three billion years to go in the semester, so I'm thinking wipeout."
"You mean like the flood thing again?"
"No, that didn't happen, that's just part of part of their mythology. No, I'm thinking more like what we did when the dinosaurs just kept getting bigger instead of smarter."
"Oh yeah, I remember," said Miranda, "Hey, don't they have enough nuclear weapons to do it to themselves?"
" Oh yeah, but on some days, I think they are just smart enough not to do it, other days I am just so surprised they haven't done it yet. Besides, then you've got to wade through all that radiation crap that Melissa built in as a deterrent."
The bell rang for the next class.
"See you guys later. I'm going to go get the group, show'em the F and discuss how we are going to wack the wackos."

Joe

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Okay, Joe, I take it all back. I should have known better than to contradict you. Go ahead, beat me into submission with your considerable writing talent.

Or...try. Wink

Quote:

I don't think it is necessary or proper for humans to be rational all of the time. Good things can come out of non-logical processes...

Yes, Portal Star! Yes! Give me a belief system that is larger than me. One that exceeds my limited capacity for logic. One that encompasses the mystery and beauty and incomprehensible complexity of the universe. One that offers profound joys, challenges and comforts. At the same time, it must also contain truths about the most minute elements of my own individual world, right down to how I should treat the idiot who sideswipes my car.

Give me a belief system that inspires me to be better than I can be on my own. One that enlarges my heart. One that makes me kinder, more truthful, less fearful, smarter and more generous.

God knows I need all of that right here on A2K. :wink:

And even more in my real life.

Why do I need inspiration? Why do I need examples? Why do I need joy and challenge and comforting, and all the rest? I don't know, but I do. Perhaps it is that "God-shaped" hole in me, as the writer said, that needs to be filled.

That was a good story, Joe. Despite your disbelief, your good Catholic upbringing always shows through. I imagine that it is at least partially responsible for shaping you into the delightfully kind, empathetic and thoughtful person you've become.

With love,

Eva

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Joe Nation wrote:

Quote:
Is it not possible...just possible...that there are forces at work in the universe which we cannot comprehend? And if there is an intelligence behind it all...IF...would it not be possible that that intelligence could make itself known to humans on a level that the humans at that point in their development would be able to understand? I say the possibility exists.

Larry slumped down on the bench outside of Godcraft 401:Rational Being Creation. He put his hands over his eye.
"How'd your team do?" asked Miranda standing over him. "That bad?"
"We got a F for the quarter, that's how we did." Larry stamped his foot hard.
"An F? What went wrong, great one?" Eddie, Miranda's creepy junior year boyfriend chimed in."
Larry took his hands off his face and gave Eddie a long look. He turned to Miranda.
"They, the creatures, the rational creatures, whom we made to be able to exist on their own, keep killing each other."
"Even now? That project is a couple of hundred million years old, right?"
"Yup, Eduardo and I and Tommy and Melissa set the whole thing in motion right at the beginning of the semester."
"So what if they do die? "said Eddie, picking at his noses, "Don't they just morph into seawater and start over?"
"Not in Rational Being, dweebo. They just die. You can use their elements to like make more plants and **** but the creatures they were only exist once."
"So?"
Larry let out a long sigh.
"Um, Eddie sweetheart, rational beings shouldn't kill each other, it's not rational. On your project level, creatures can kill for all kinds of things food, protection, territory, but in Senior Year you have make a universe in balance."
"I am going to so hate Senior Year."
'From what Miranda tells me you're going to be a Junior next year again so why worry?
Eddie kicked Larry. "Hey, my project's going fine. What happened to yours, allgreatandpowerful?"
"Yeah, what did happen?" asked Miranda.
"Okay, I think it's Tommy and Eduardo's fault. We build this system, okay? And we give the creatures all the tools they need, we went through the list one at a time, okay?, intelligence, love, memory, hope, the whole thing just like Dr. Emory writes it out. And we let it go and things start out really well."
"Yeah, yeah, get to the screwup. Or should I say screwups?"
"Have you been talking to Melissa?"
"Maybe." Miranda gave Eddie the eye.
Larry turned to Miranda.
"Okay, it was Tommy's idea. Because our creatures were still running around herding animals while Woody's group had a bunch traveling between worlds by telepathy already, and your team had what, that universal language thing."
"Music."
"Well, we had rudimentary music, they just weren't using it to communicate with other worlds. So anyway, I guess we decided to go with Tommy's idea and manifest ourselves a little."
"Oh, no, that's a violation."
"I know. but we thought if we just tweaked them, you know, gave them a little peek at universal balance, they'd get it, you know?"
"So what did they get?"
"Well, they didn't get universal balance, they got, I don't know how to say it"
" They went wacko."
" Yes. Thank you, Eddie, yes, they went wacko."
"What do you mean?"
"Well, let's see. About two hundred thousand years ago, Eduardo made his little tweaks and Tommy manifested himself a couple of times and since then they, the creatures, have created, ha ha, they have created, what irony, some two thousand points of separation. They classify themselves by skin tone, can you believe it? They separate by religions, there's a couple hundred of them, all knowing the truth as it is, and then there's the wars over territory and property. They kill each other over boundaries, over scientific discoveries, over political ideologies and more. I can't tell you how many languages they speak. They speak, but not to each other."
"So what are you going to do?"
"Well, there's about three billion years to go in the semester, so I'm thinking wipeout."
"You mean like the flood thing again?"
"No, that didn't happen, that's just part of part of their mythology. No, I'm thinking more like what we did when the dinosaurs just kept getting bigger instead of smarter."
"Oh yeah, I remember," said Miranda, "Hey, don't they have enough nuclear weapons to do it to themselves?"
" Oh yeah, but on some days, I think they are just smart enough not to do it, other days I am just so surprised they haven't done it yet. Besides, then you've got to wade through all that radiation crap that Melissa built in as a deterrent."
The bell rang for the next class.
"See you guys later. I'm going to go get the group, show'em the F and discuss how we are going to wack the wackos."

Joe

Did you write this? It sounds like the work of Neil Gaiman or Terry Pratchet. Are you a writer?

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I thought it sounded like Parke Godwin. (Waiting for the Galactic Bus, The Snake Oil Wars, etc...)

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Eva wrote:

Okay, Joe, I take it all back. I should have known better than to contradict you. Go ahead, beat me into submission with your considerable writing talent.

Or...try.

Quote:
I don't think it is necessary or proper for humans to be rational all of the time. Good things can come out of non-logical processes...

Yes, Portal Star! Yes! Give me a belief system that is larger than me. One that exceeds my limited capacity for logic. One that encompasses the mystery and beauty and incomprehensible complexity of the universe. One that offers profound joys, challenges and comforts. At the same time, it must also contain truths about the most minute elements of my own individual world, right down to how I should treat the idiot who sideswipes my car.

Give me a belief system that inspires me to be better than I can be on my own. One that enlarges my heart. One that makes me kinder, more truthful, less fearful, smarter and more generous.

God knows I need all of that right here on A2K. :wink:

And even more in my real life.

Why do I need inspiration? Why do I need examples? Why do I need joy and challenge and comforting, and all the rest? I don't know, but I do. Perhaps it is that "God-shaped" hole in me, as the writer said, that needs to be filled.

That was a good story, Joe. Despite your disbelief, your good Catholic upbringing always shows through. I imagine that it is at least partially responsible for shaping you into the delightfully kind, empathetic and thoughtful person you've become.

With love,

Eva

Eva, your passion is beautiful. But let me burst your bubble a little bit - don't be too soft on religion - it doesn't always and most often doesn't lead to good things. I wasn't only talking about religion, but emotion, mysticism, and other things in that category.

Note: I know how you feel, it is very hard for me being a mostly logical person (love philosophy/science), but my career is as an artist and poet! I have to straddle the lines of emotion/thought more than I am comfortable with.

But don't discard logic yet - all of the things you said are not necessarily illogical, they just don't follow linear thinking in the style of a proof to arrive at them. It -is- logical to love your fellow man and want to do good in the world. Logic doesn't = coldhearted or other undesirable human characteristics. That is because of biology and we are social creatures, and it makes sense to be nice to people when it gets you places and makes your life better.

"Give me a belief system that inspires me to be better than I can be on my own. One that enlarges my heart. One that makes me kinder, more truthful, less fearful, smarter and more generous."

My father is all of these things, and he has no religion in his life. It is not a necessity, but rather a way of arriving at conclusions. Emotion is often contradictory to logic, as emotion is impulsive and guided by feeling and instinct, and logic is guided by step-by-step thought processes. I think it would make an unhealthy human to discard either.

Eva, as I'm sure you know you can have passion and creativity without religion. I don't like religion because of the way it often hinders other progresses of man (such as science, art.) It seems too often to be a method of control and not one of production*.
*not always, you see, religion could be blamed for both the dark ages and the renaissance.

Anyways, let me try to organize this rambling post: religion is not necessary as a facilitator for these things you appreciate, and neither is logic a hinderance to it. The only time that illogical views (or any views for that matter) are a hinderance is when they are used to suppress the positive progress of others. My favorite religions (or periods of religions) are those embracing creativity and scholarship - humanism. Logic and religion and emotion don't have to be enemies, they can work together.

[inner monologue: I don't know if religion can be blamed for the ills of man. After all, if man created religion (probably) then man is wholly responsble for doing it to himself, and would be acting the same way with or without religion because religion is simply one manifestation of the collective thoughts of humanity.]

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Yes, I wrote that. Whatyathink?

Thank you for the compliments(?) Yes. I admit it fully. I am an ink-stained wretch or a carpal tunnel syndrome wannabe and Eva is one of my muses.

Did you know she is an artist too? She is. I know that her card says Public Relations or some such nonsense, but in order to take the dross she is offered to work with and turn into something wonderful to look at and inspiring to others, she must be an artist.

That, of course, is the answer to her questions

Quote:

Why do I need inspiration? Why do I need examples? Why do I need joy and challenge and comforting, and all the rest? I don't know, but I do.

She's an artist. She's a seeker. I'm glad she's here with us.

Joe

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I know! This is a good thread! We have a writer (joenation - that explains why you can lie!), a gentle artist (Eva, resident venetian g-ddess), a scholar (hobitbob is a historian and knows about art), and a sometimes abraisive artist (yeah, that would be me). We so could have a school.

Yes, it is good. if you want I'll give it the ol' critique (er, but not right now I'm supposed to be writing a paper .) Embarrassed

What do you write?
And Eva, how do you express your creativity?

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Er..actually Hobbitbob is an Historian with delusions of Kunstgeschicter-ness. Wink

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hobitbob wrote:

Er..actually Hobbitbob is an Historian with delusions of Kunstgeschicter-ness.

Oh, right I remember. Sorry. :edit:

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I've given this question a lot of thought. I have two friends who make a living in the 'headology' business. They aren't thieves or nutcases, both truly believe they have a gift, and financially their position is well placed.
I don't let them read my palms or my tea cup or cards or even my angels. They are my friends and as such, already have way to much input in my life. I don't need the hypothetical future thrown in for good measure.

I often watch customers walk into their shop, intellegent, well dressed, friendly people come in regularily. I watch them and wonder why they believe?
I've come to a conclusion, please take it for what it's worth...
I have often compared the 'phsycic - horoscopes' angle to the confessional. A sancitified or spiritual couselling session. People with worries, problems or dispare choose a confident and unload. Physic customers, at least repeats, get a sense of comraderie in their lives, a second voice or an opinion. Any good therapist, bartender or palm reader, reads the person first. I guess, it's comforting to believe you are part of a greater cause, or good or experience. Where else can you ask, When will I meet the man of my dreams and get an answer.

I was in the Motor Vehicle office the other day, two chinese men - father and son, were getting new license plates. Both chose a plate with the number eight. Does it really make them safer or do they just feel safer?

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Headology....are their names Esme and Gytha? Very Happy

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Nope, but you got my drift. Laughing

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Sigh...now if I can just find a Perditax of my own. Very Happy

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Celli, Portal, and Joe, come you hither!A drink at the Mended Drum?

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Ceili, in Chinese the word for the number eight sounds like the word for good luck. So 8 is a lucky number. I read that in Hong Kong (while it was still British) people paid thousands of dollars to purchase the rights to license plate 88888!

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Are Horoscopes religion?

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