Atheism spreads religious awareness and biases our thinking...

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

No. The assertion that "there are no gods" is just as much a belief as the assertion that there are gods.

Point of clarification: Is atoothfairyism a belief to you?

@Thomas,

If someone were to assert that the toothfairy doesn't exist, that would certainly be classified as a belief. If that person then went on to create a collective term for all those who believe that the toothfairy doesn't exist, I would consider that term an expression of a belief.

Atheism isn't the absence of theism, as many seem to believe. It is the belief that theism is wrong. The absence of theism is something else entirely.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I disagree. I have no specific belief that the tootfairy doesn't exist. It is not an issue I think about. Ever.

Only because professed theism is the norm in our society, whereas toothfairyism is the exception to say the least. In a society like Thailand, where 80--90% of citizens don't believe in god, you will find plenty of people who are atheists in exactly the same way that you're an atoothfairyist. Like the tooth fairy, unicorns, and leprechauns, gods are just another kind of conceivable, but almost certainly nonexistent beings.

Cyracuz wrote:

But if you asked a person, and he said "I am an atheist", what would that tell you if you didn't know what theism was? Nothing. For that person to be able to relate to you what atheism is, he would first have to tell you what theism is.

No, you only have to describe a god to him. If he then tells you, "I don't believe in any beings of that kind", you're done.

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@rosborne979,

...you right obviously...should have guessed that the Conscience agenda was the aim...

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Let us make this clear just for the record:

An atheist is a person who believes that there are no gods. If you don't hold this specific belief you are not an atheist, just as you are not a theist if you don't hold the specific belief that there are gods.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Atheism isn't the absence of theism, as many seem to believe. It is the belief that theism is wrong. The absence of theism is something else entirely.

Webster's Dictionary disagrees, as does the American Heritage Dictionary. Both dictionaries allow for either meaning of the term.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Let us make this clear just for the record:

An atheist is a person who believes that there are no gods. If you don't hold this specific belief you are not an atheist, just as you are not a theist if you don't hold the specific belief that there are gods.

So what? It is not the same thing as asserting the unknowable, unprovable, exists. It is not a system with dogma and rules.

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@Cyracuz,

From where does it follow that by knowing what theism is, atheism therefore is about believing there is no God ? You may at best argue that a good deal of atheists may be ill informed on atheism or that they have a linear explanation about it...but it doesn't follow that their ignorance about atheism changes what atheism is and means...atheism is about not having any good reason to believe rather then believing that God does not exist...quite different !

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@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Atheism is a belief, like not-collecting stamps is a hobby.

Or as Bill Maher put it, "if atheism is a belief, abstinence is a sex position." I agree with both of you.

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@Cyracuz,

Your understanding of the term "Atheism" is incorrect.

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@rosborne979,

...nevertheless is fair to recon a great deal of so self entitled atheists are exactly what he meant...I wouldn't be surprised that the vast majority is more concerned with being cool and not looking intellectually retarded then actually having a good notion on what atheism stands for...its a very common mistake hearing people on how they believe god does not exist...when we confront them with the comparison between believing that not, or lacking belief in, most just think we are being peaky, they don't see any difference at all...
...equally the cynical type also hangs around, mostly in academic grounds...those do know the argument back and forward, quite happy to sing it when confronted, but bottom line they often act and behave as believers rather then non believers...

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz,

Debating atheists want so much for their “ism” NOT to be a “belief” system or structure that they invented a scenari0 that tries to show this to be the case. The false argument they use is: The word atheism is derived from “a” meaning without...prefixing “theism” meaning a belief in a GOD…making the word “atheism”: without a BELIEF in a GOD.

That is nonsense. That is not how the word atheism came into the English language.

Atheism came into English from the Greek through the French…and means without a god. (I often say it means without gods, but I was corrected on this and accept the correction. But being without “a god” equals being without gods.)

Atheism is not a religion…but it most assuredly is a belief.

I think there is value in confronting (perhaps even in combating) religion…but I think that doing so from the perspective of “belief” (which is all atheism will ever accomplish) is an ineffective way to do so.

Good point you made here…and your defense of it has been excellent.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

So a theist believes god exist. An atheist believes god does not exist.

No, some atheists believe that gods do not exist--and i assert that they are the loud, pushy, obnoxious type. Most atheists whom i have known, don't know, don't care, and don't believe any of the theistic horseshit they've been fed about gods. There's a huge, yawning gap between rejecting claims about gods and a positive assertion that there are no gods.

Quote:

Both of these beliefs are about god, which makes both variations of theism.

This is exactly why your thesis is so simple-minded. You make no qualitative distinction between simply saying "I don't believe that" and the entire panoply of theistic baggage--which includes shouting it from street corners, accosting people in public, going door to door. Atheists don't impinge on the public's consciouness unless some bible thumper rants about them or his own purposes. This is the most ridiculous aspect of your thesis, that the nearly invisible community of atheists somehow has a major impact on society. Just because you can think something up doesn't either make it true, nor even likely. You need to learn to distinguish between the possible and the probable. It's the latter you seem to have a problem with.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Let us make this clear just for the record:

An atheist is a person who believes that there are no gods. If you don't hold this specific belief you are not an atheist, just as you are not a theist if you don't hold the specific belief that there are gods.

This is the last refuge of the witless thesis--define one's terms so as to exlude the possibility of contradiction. There's a name for that--it's called begging the question.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

So what? It is not the same thing as asserting the unknowable, unprovable, exists. It is not a system with dogma and rules.

I've pointed this out more than once--Cyracuz is not listening.

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The laughable part of all this is that Edgar definitely "believes" there are no gods. Joe Nation has done research and has evidence that there are no gods. Thomas has asserted there are no gods.

There are three atheists right here on A2K who BELIEVE there are no gods.

Setanta wants people to suppose only a small minority of atheists "believe" there are no gods...but that is a joke. It is obvious to anybody listening to the music rather than the lyrics that MOST atheists do BELIEVE there are no gods.

Atheism is a system of beliefs. They happen to be beliefs opposite to the beliefs of the theists...but make no mistake about it, they are beliefs.

I do enjoy when theists try to make their beliefs seem logical...the contortions of logic and reasoning they use to justify their claims that their "beliefs" are logical.

I enjoy atheists doing that also.

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@Thomas,

Thomas, what are you reading?

Both those dictionaries you linked show that I am right.

The American Heritage Dictionary states that atheism is the disbelief in or denial of the existence of god or gods.

Disbelieving the existence of gods is just another way of saying believing that god's don't exist. Do you think that it's not a belief if you say that you don't believe gods exist? That's just semantic babble.
If you assert something about gods, it is a belief.

Merriam Webster even goes so far as to say that atheism is the doctrine that there are no deities.

Thank you Thomas, for asserting in this thread, beyond any doubt, that atheism is belief about theism.

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@Frank Apisa,

You have no idea what i want, Frank. But your head is so far up your ass with your desparate attempts to validate your childish theology, you'll clutch at any straws. Keep in mind that in Cyracuz' bizarre little world here, your theology of agnosticism is also equivalent to theism. Frank, the closet theist.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Atheism is a system of beliefs. They happen to be beliefs opposite to the beliefs of the theists...but make no mistake about it, they are beliefs.

Beliefs . . . plural. What are those beliefs, Frank? You've identified (without evidence other than your bald assertion) a belief that there is no god. Leaving aside that little piece of self-justifying tripe, Frank, tell us what other beliefs atheistss have in their "system of beliefs."

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Most atheists whom i have known, don't know, don't care, and don't believe any of the theistic horseshit they've been fed about gods.

Then they are not atheists. I do not believe that god or gods exist. That does not make me an atheist, because I do not believe that gods don't exist either. Both assertions are equally worthless to me. I am not an atheist.

Thomas was kind enough to post two dictionary definitions of atheism. Look at those if you have any doubts. Atheism is belief that theism is wrong.

It is not I who am wrong about this. It is all your friends who call themselves atheists when they are not.

You display the bias in our thinking perfectly. It is a conflict scenario, and most people think it's either or. You either believe in god, or you are an atheist. But as I said, and as the dictionaries confirm; you are an atheist if you believe god or gods don't exist. That's the criteria for falling into that category. Merely turning one's back on theism isn't sufficient.

Quote:

This is the most ridiculous aspect of your thesis, that the nearly invisible community of atheists somehow has a major impact on society.

That is not part of my "thesis". I am saying that the counterparts theism/atheism bias our thinking. The mere existence of this conflict makes it harder for us to think about human, spiritual matters without involving gods at some point along the way, either to reject their existence or to embrace them.

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Atheism spreads religious awareness and biases our thinking...

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