15
   

Chicago and the NATO Summit

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:23 pm
@joefromchicago,
You disagree, Joe?
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:26 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I'm sure you're just employing ironic humor, but humor me a moment, Joe. What is the distinction to be made between an anarchist and a bomb-thrower, given the practical history of anarchism?

An anarchist believes that humans are best able to regulate their political affairs directly, without the medium of a government imposed upon them. A bomb thrower believes that the best way to get certain aims accomplished is by throwing bombs.

Although, if we were to make a Venn diagram of this, we could see where the two sets would overlap, it would be equally clear that there are areas where they do not intersect at all. Prince Kropotkin, for instance, was an anarchist but not a bomb thrower. Timothy McVeigh, on the other hand, was a bomb thrower but not an anarchist. And Alexander Berkman was an anarchist and a bomb thrower. If we don't know that a bomb thrower is an anarchist, therefore, it's unfair to call him/her an anarchist just because he/she is throwing a bomb.

Setanta wrote:
Let me make that a little more clear. Given the idea of the propaganda of the deed, i can't think that true anarchists would be offended that bomb throwers were characterized as anarchists. I just don't see the point of an objection to calling violent protesters anarchists. Anarchists aren't likely to mind.

Well, that's rather like saying that because Sam Adams liked to dump tea into Boston Harbor, it's fair to label all "patriots" as "vandals." You make the mistake of thinking that one bomb-throwing anarchist is a fair representation of all anarchists. Just because some anarchists like to throw bombs doesn't mean that all anarchists do.
joefromchicago
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:28 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

You disagree, Joe?

Do I disagree that you're Canadian? No, I don't disagree.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:35 pm
@joefromchicago,
I told ya so, Joe.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:35 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

JTT wrote:

You disagree, Joe?

Do I disagree that you're Canadian? No, I don't disagree.


Why's the Canadian so touchy about his nationality?

Cycloptichorn
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Up pops one of the shining example of exactly what I was saying. See, I told ya so, Joe.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
I rather suspect that the press in England in the 1770s did portray those whom we might call patriots as vandals. But my point is that i see no reason why anarchists would take offense at violent demonstrators being characterized as anarchists--given the history of anarchism in the West. Are you personally familiar with anarchists who have expressed disgust at bomb throwing? Are you certain that the violent demonstrators do not consider themselves anarchists, or object to being so characterized? Who gets to decide who is or who isn't an anarchist? Is your objection is based on a dictionary definition of anarchist?


From dictionary-dot-com:


1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.
3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

From the freedictionary-dot-com

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a person who advocates the abolition of government and a social system based on voluntary cooperation
2. a person who causes disorder or upheaval

It seems to me that you offer a distinction without a difference.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Up pops one of the shining example of exactly what I was saying. See, I told ya so, Joe.

Could you explain to us one more time, Cy, how the US isn't a terrorist nation?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

JTT wrote:

You disagree, Joe?

Do I disagree that you're Canadian? No, I don't disagree.


Why's the Canadian so touchy about his nationality?

Cycloptichorn

It's a Canadian thing. You wouldn't understand.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:51 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
But my point is that i see no reason why anarchists would take offense at violent demonstrators being characterized as anarchists--given the history of anarchism in the West.

And here I suspect is the problem. You have a very limited understanding of anarchism.

Setanta wrote:
Are you personally familiar with anarchists who have expressed disgust at bomb throwing?

Yes.

Setanta wrote:
Are you certain that the violent demonstrators do not consider themselves anarchists, or object to being so characterized?

No, not at all. But then that's my point: if one doesn't know a person is an anarchist, it is unfair to label that person as a "bomb thrower" just because that person belongs to a group that may include some bomb throwers. Eric Robert Rudolph was an opponent of abortion and a bomb thrower. Does that mean that all anti-abortion advocates are bomb throwers?

Setanta wrote:
Who gets to decide who is or who isn't an anarchist?

Again, you make my point for me. I'm not the one, after all, who is labelling persons whose political beliefs are unknown to me as "anarchists."

Setanta wrote:
Is your objection is based on a dictionary definition of anarchist?

No, it is based on my understanding of anarchism, which, I assure you, goes far beyond some definitions in the dictionary.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 03:59 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Who gets to decide who is or who isn't an anarchist?

Again, you make my point for me. I'm not the one, after all, who is labelling persons whose political beliefs are unknown to me as "anarchists."


Neither am i--that would be the news outlets. Your fling about my understanding of anarchists was unnecessary, and snotty. But then, i've known for a long time that you consider yourself better informed than anyone here on just about any topic. If you want to chalk this one up as a "win" for yourself, be my guest.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:07 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Who gets to decide who is or who isn't an anarchist?

Again, you make my point for me. I'm not the one, after all, who is labelling persons whose political beliefs are unknown to me as "anarchists."


Neither am i--that would be the news outlets.

And that's my point!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:08 pm
Apparently, then, you missed my point, which is that it is understandable that they do so.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:15 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
But then that's my point: if one doesn't know a person is an anarchist, it is unfair to label that person as a "bomb thrower" just because that person belongs to a group that may include some bomb throwers.

Bomb throwers? Oh, you must be meaning math professors.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:21 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
But then, i've known for a long time that you consider yourself better informed than anyone here on just about any topic.


Here's another example, Joe, this one of hypocrisy.

Imagine, Setanta, of all people, saying this!

Maybe it gets to be so natural that these guys don't even realize they are doing it.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:24 pm
We should ask djjd to clear this up. He once claimed to be an anarchist.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:32 pm
@wandeljw,
You sure that wasn't Dyslexia?
joefromchicago
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:38 pm
@JTT,
I'll let you Canadians fight it out among yourselves.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:39 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Bomb throwers? Oh, you must be meaning math professors.

To-ma-to, to-mah-to.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2012 04:39 pm
Just out of curiosity, how many bombs have been thrown so far in the Windy City?
 

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