10
   

I'm confused by "experimental questions"....

 
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 11:18 am
Quote:
As for Goldberg’s boys, he said one wrote about breaking a ceiling fan and not telling his dad. The other wrote about the time Goldberg took the boys out of school for a day of skiing — and worried that he might get in trouble for admitting to playing hooky.
That woulda been my secret. Unexcused absences were a big deal as I recall, but the rule was occasionally broken, i.e., if Dad has a business trip to D.C. or we needed an extra travel day to visit the grandparents at Thanksgiving. At age 8 or 9, I'd have been traumatized by having to 'out' my parents' rule-breaking ways.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 12:17 pm
@Joe Nation,
If the question was designed to inspire insipid responses then that's a problem in itself.

If a company that manufactures tests can't write a decent test question then we've got yet another problem.

It's perfectly fine with me if these people quit writing tests. If they find it so difficult they should leave test writing to individual teachers, who, as I recall, did a very good job with the task.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 12:27 pm
@Irishk,
I'm not too concerned about the question but it's probably because I read this excellent article: http://www.citypages.com/2011-02-23/news/inside-the-multimillion-dollar-essay-scoring-business/

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 01:05 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
If they find it so difficult they should leave test writing to individual teachers, who, as I recall, did a very good job with the task.


but they didn't really do such a good job - there was no consistency and it showed up when people transferred from school to school or when they moved on to university/college.

A good mark in an average school was/is not equivalent to an average or good mark from a school with higher overall standards, and that does matter. I can recall some pretty nasty results, including suicide.

The whole standardized teaching/testing industry seems to have gone to a bit of a crazy place in the U.S., but it's easy to see where it came from.

Writing a good test with valid, measurable results is not easy.

sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 01:09 pm
@ehBeth,
Yes, my husband has to do this as a professor and he goes insane for a week or so of every quarter he teaches as he tries to come up with something that measures his students' knowledge correctly and isn't too hard or too easy. I think it's the single thing he finds most difficult about his job (and it's a job that most people would consider pretty difficult!)
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 01:13 pm
@ehBeth,
I would say that when a kid kills themselves over grades or a college admission that the problem has more to do with the child and his/her family than with any test.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 01:39 pm
@boomerang,
You don't know if you've got a decent question unless you've tested it.

An adult reads things very differently than an eight year old.

What was the object that was hidden? (not okay for 3rd grade)
What did Lola hide? (Okay for 3rd grade)

I used to write vocabulary stories for Grade 2-6. The company I worked would give me a list of words to put in a story, I'd write it and then try to write cogent questions about both the words and the story.

There were times when we thought (I had a really good editor down in Texas) that we had nailed a particular lesson and only to get several comments back about either the stories, the questions or both. Once there was an objection to a kid walking by himself on a fishing dock because that was dangerous. (fifth graders) They wanted it re-written so there would be a group, I said:
"Okay, but to it's more likely that someone in a group of fifth graders is going to get pushed into the water than if the kid was by himself. "

~
As for teachers being able to write questions well, I drove my professors at University of Tulsa Communication Department crazy because many of them couldn't write a multiple choice question where only one of the choices was correct. It's hard to do. You have make all the choices plausible, but only one can be accepted as the answer.
(Obviously this is not the case with D: all of the above///Both A and C//Both B and D/// blah blah yadda yadda. )
I can't think of the guy's name now, but every time he handed back a test, we would review it as a class and go through all of the questions. Sometimes as many as seven or eight out of fifty had to be revised.
It was fun.
I fought for every one of my answers.

Joe(I was a putz)Nation

DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 02:03 pm
@Joe Nation,
I'd think that errors in the test would be a very big deal, but the test makers don't seem too concerned about it:

Problems with Florida's Science FCAT Test?

Quote:
Over the past few weeks, I have discovered some major scientific errors in the guidelines that are used to develop questions for the fifth and eighth grade Science FCAT tests.

...

I expected the Test Item Specifications to be a tremendous help in writing simulated FCAT questions. What I found was a collection of poorly written examples, multiple-choice questions where one or more of the wrong responses were actually scientifically correct answers, and definitions that ranged from misleading to totally wrong.

I suggest that you read over the entire document, but here are a few of the problems that I found in the FCAT 2.0 Science Test Item Specifications for grade 5.

1. A glossary of definitions (Appendix C) is provided for test item writers to indicate the level of understanding expected of fifth grade students. Included in that list is the following definition:

Predator—An organism that obtains nutrients from other organisms.

By that definition, cows are predators because they obtain nutrients from plants. The plants are predators too, since they obtain nutrients from decaying remains of other organisms. I have yet to find anyone who thinks that this is a proper definition of a predator.

2. In the same list we find:

Germination—The process by which plants begin to grow from seed to spore or from seed to bud.

There are no plants that grow from seed to spore. The mistakes in these definitions are not technicalities. They are errors that any fourth grade science teacher would catch. How did they make it past scientific review?


...

These are just a few of the problems that I found. I contacted FLDOE's Test Development Center, and sent them a list of the errors. Their response for error after error was:

"This item was reviewed and deemed appropriate by our Content Advisory Committee."


...

But as much as I would LOVE to check the accuracy of the questions from the actual Science FCAT, I can't. Teachers, scientists, and the general public are not allowed to see actual test questions, even after the tests have been graded and the penalties for those grades have been imposed.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 02:21 pm
@Joe Nation,
Hey! I was in the communications school at TU too!

Luckily, I never had a teacher try to pawn off a multiple choice test on us.

It's fine with me if they test questions, just test them outside the parameters of the regular test and do it anonymously.

In fact, I don't understand why they don't do all of this state testing anonymously. If it's supposed to measure how well the school is doing it shouldn't matter what each individual child's score is.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 02:57 pm
@DrewDad,
A teacher in the D.C. area was fired a couple of months ago for giving a math test to her 3rd graders that included this question:

Quote:
Green aliens landed in Chicago and rounded up 1479 math teachers. The bloodthirsty aliens then sucked the blood of 828 teachers and left them for dead. The aliens tied up the rest of the teachers and marched them into 3 UFOs. If there were an equal number of poor math teachers in each UFO, how many teachers were in each UFO?


I don't think the mention of aliens is all that bad, but on other questions she also described cannibals, terrorists, a dying kid and his funeral -- oh, and putting Africans into ovens.

Too much violence for 8-year olds? The school got complaints from parents.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/05/teacher-fired-for-giving-_n_1322173.html
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 06:05 pm
@Irishk,
And then there was the teacher who tried to incorporate a slavery lesson and a math lesson by asking her mostly black students to figure out how much cotton was picked. I think it too was something she'd copied off the internet.

I remember when Mo was in 3rd grade and each student had to write a math problem. The class's work was stapled together and sent as homework over the Christmas holiday. There were a lot of questions like "I cut the heads off of 5 snowmen a day for 2 weeks. How many snowmen did I cut the heads off of altogether?" and some other crazy stuff like the alien problem you mention. (Thank goodness nobody asked about cooking Africans (or anybody else) in an oven because that would NOT have gone over well!)
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:01 pm
@boomerang,
I don't think this is a terribly bizarre question. Most good children's literature revolves around keeping a secret or two, especially from us Muggles. Kids have secrets, special boxes filled with special coins or rocks. Kids love secrets, secret places to keep icky girls or boys out. Most secrets are innocent.. makes me think the hubbub was more about parent worried something nefarious would get out than a question on a test.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:10 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:
Too much violence for 8-year olds?

I would imagine so....

My eight- (almost nine-) year old would be upset by such questions.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:13 pm
@Ceili,
It bothered me in that it seemed kind of boundary-crossing. You don't ask people about secrets, because they're secrets.

Asking a kid about a secret, during a test where they're being pressured to make a good grade, is just not fair to the kids. It puts them in a dilemma of either taking a dive on the test, or revealing a secret. It's not a dilemma that they should be asked to face.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:30 pm
@DrewDad,
Been there - as an adult. Back around 1991, I took a nonrequired class in MS-DOS. Every weekly quiz had a question asking us to rate the class. Yeah, we were getting graded on how much ass we could kiss, while the adjunct instructor merrily documented how great everyone thought his teaching abilities were.

I took this one to the department chair. I do not believe I was the only one, because surely they wouldn't have fired the guy in the middle of the semester based on one person's complaint.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 09:55 pm
@roger,
Woulda been funny if one of the little 3rd graders answered with something like:

"We were told not to tell, but our teacher, Mr. Hinklelooper and the music teacher, Ms. Dudley always lock the door when they go into the supply closet together. It's supposed to be secret, though."
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 May, 2012 11:13 pm
@Irishk,
That would be poetic.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 02:47 am
@boomerang,
I'm lost about what the fuss is about.

I'd have thought it a good question to ask for reading comprehension.

I'd initially thought people were upset because of the emphasis of not keeping secrets in child safety/ protection lessons, but that doesn't seem to be the issue.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 02:49 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Yeah, soz and ehBeth, I get that.

But are these tests the right place to do that? Is it okay that nobody knows which scores count and which ones don't?

These scores have an effect on school funding (so on your property value too), teacher pay, student "outcomes", etc.

Something seems very hinky to me about this.

Maybe they should pay focus groups of students to try out their experimental questions.

How can the scoring issue be relevant if the answer to this question is not part of the score?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 03:31 am
@dlowan,
I think the point is that the students taking the test don't know that.
0 Replies
 
 

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