Reverse Psychology

Well how is that possible? I guess a politician could do it but if you know something doesn't exist how can you realistically argue that it does?

I could go on and on about what is revealed in the Bible, but I would not be too convincing.

The old Latin Roman Catholic service was beautiful, stirring, and went right for the emotions of the people, I have to admit.........and they do have great buildings!

If it were possible to prove that God exists, I would not be agnostic.

Re: Reverse Psychology

Because no one can, unless your standards for proof are rather low.

When I was a Christian, my case for believing in god was usually about faith over proof.

But here's an easy attempt, sort of ...well, most atheists would acknowledge that uncaused or self-caused events are impossible in other contexts, but in cosmological arguments they'll immediately entertain the idea. If the universe has always existed, & thus it's uncaused, the big bang theory is impossible. All matter & even time itself has a beginning, & thus a cause. But if there was no cause or beginning of a cause for the big bang it's impossible.

That can be articulated better, but what it comes down to is that "the beginning of the cause of the beginning" doesn't make much sense unless god, being outside our understanding, caused it all.

Of course, if a theist really tried that argument on me I'd just say something like, "well then wiseguy who caused god?"

And then everyone's screwed.

Wait, let me try again.... Of course god is real, just look at Angelina Jolie.


Thing is, I could make a more convincing case against evolution, though I wouldn't buy it myself.

G-d exists. You can't prove me wrong. I just feel it, inside of me, and it is a feeling no one else could exactly understand unless they were me.

There must be a "designer" for the universe, because certain laws hold true throughout it, and the universe is constantly in motion, expanding and contracting, having energy exchanges. Energy and matter is conserved in all transactions, so there must have been a catalyst for creating the initial energy and initial matter.

We may be part of a lager bieng, and just not know it. A cell is unaware of its position in the human thumb. You could tell the cell it was a thumb, or even a human, but it would have no way of directly observing outside of its perceptive sphere.

Like that cell, we could be part of a larger structure in the universe, named g-d, and have no observable evidence of it. We are but ants crawling around a tennis ball in the sea of planets.

Maybe g-d -is- physics, the underlying patterning of existance. The law under which all things we have observed are made.

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Monger -

Evolution is easy to question. We have fossil records, but during human recorded existance we have never witnessed one species drift so far in two directions that they could no longer mate and produce fertile offspring (branch into two different species.)

A major step in the scientific method is testing, and genetic drift has become confirmed, as has micro-evolution, but evolution would take too long and be too expensive to replicate in a lab under human lifetime.

This excludes viruses, because they are not exactly alive.

(oh, wait, have bacteria mutated that much under observation? I forget... )

Yes, but other than the "there must be a designer" bit (which is flawed), that is all about beliefs & faith rather than an attempt at proof, which is understandable since no proof exists.

PortalStar, about the evolution bit you added when changing your post...don't worry there's no need to sell me on it. Creationism is something I'll frequently argue against, but I'm familiar with many arguments for it as I was raised a creationist. Probably most wouldn't be all that convincing to someone like you who knows his stuff though (from what I've seen on some other threads).

I feel many things. Just because I feel something does not necessarily make my feelings the truth!

Thanks, Monger. And you have interesting icons.

Ok then if noone can or will not attempt to prove that there is a Creator, then can I hear of everyones proof that there is no God(Creator)? Because I want to see on what basis you guys have to be an atheist or agnostic.

the only plausible evidence for the existence of a christian god is Gregorian Chants (damn near a mystical listening experience)

How can one prove that what does not exist does not exist? So long as you have faith that there is a God you will never see that God is a construct of the human mind - He/She/It is imaginary.

am i really to believe the prophecies re: Jesus were 'Lucky'??? here are some:

1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger

Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem

Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...

3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah

Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):
Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).

4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt

Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen

5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend

Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten

Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.

10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field

Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.

11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced

Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves

Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Now what do you suppose the odds are for these twelve prophecies being fulfilled in one man's life? What are the odds of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, a little town in the midst of hundreds of towns and cities in Israel?

The prophecy of Jesus having his hands and feet pierced was written hundreds of years before the Roman Empire invented crucifixion as a form of execution.

Who would believe a King would ride into a great city on the back of an donkey? Who else would be silent and not speak a word in his own defense, after being beaten, spit upon, and having the hairs of his beard plucked from his cheeks?

The prophecy that Jesus would be born into a family from the tribe of Judah is a 12-to-1 shot because there are 12 tribes of Israel. But, as Christian scholar Grant Jeffrey figured out, for all these prophecies to come true in one man's life would be 1 chance in 10 billion times a billion. And, there are many more Bible prophecies about a Messiah that have been fulfilled by Jesus, and we have only listed 12 of those prophecies here.

Does the accuracy of the "12 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ" convince that Jesus truly is the son of God?

If so, then it is time to change your life, it is time to become a member of God's family, it is time to get your name in God's Book Of Life. Turn your life over to Jesus Christ. Confess to Jesus that you are a sinner and that you want Him in your life.

ah more mind fun

You assume those words are infallible and have never been jacked with.

Frihnds . . . i come here to you today to renew yer faith in JEE-Zuss . . . i don't just want to spout more bahble scripcher at ya, though . . . i want ya to feel the Lord in yer lives. Frihnds, put yer hands on the television set, CAN YOU FEEL THE POWER? Put yer fingers in the the electric socket, Frihnds, CAN YOU FEEL THE POWER?

Oh Jaysus! I went for the 220.

while this made me laugh, i fear for you.....

yes...tv preachers make me laugh as well....i wouldn't recommend them....radio is better....

the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1947 have provided impressive evidence for both the integrity of the Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts of the Old Testament and the authenticity of the books themselves

....alas,i'm still waiting for an answer.....it is accepted that the old testament was written hundreds of years before Jesus' time.....were those prophecies re: Jesus just lucky?....

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really?