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Agnosticism: To believe or NOT to believe...

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:26 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Ruach wrote:
What if an agnostic states God is stupid, God is cruel. Doesn't that leave the listener to have the opinion that the agnostic is leaning to a side of credibility of God that they claim they do not know exists.


Ruach,

Examine your own very un-Christian comments about Frank and quit your crusade against him here. I for one am absolutely sick of it. And back when I was a Christian I would have been sick of your vengeful use and invocation of God for your petty message board spat.

If Frank thinks the Biblical god is stupid and cruel that is his prerogative, I think the Biblical god is stupid and cruel as well. Many do.

We have as much of a right to our opinions as you do to think that we'll burn in hell for ours.

If you disagree with his opinion feel free to express it. But quit pestering the Moderators for one. Their job is not to defend your god against any negative opinion.


I don't think this is the appropriate forum for this rebuking, Craven. There are many things many of us are sick of and those things should be expressed in a PM.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:28 pm
I appreciate your feedback but I think this is the most approprate place for a response to her post on this thread.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:32 pm
I asked a perfectly reasonable question in reference to no one. It has been my stance from the beginning that I feel agnostics lean one way or another. So you are unchristian and attack me because you want to back up unchristians on this site. Thats it. I figured I could be reasonable and get atheists attacking a christian because of belief. I just don't want to be attacked personally. What is the standard here.
Christians can get slammed for sticking steadfast to beliefs and unbelievers can stomp on them. A little here stomping and little there stomping and a giant stomping on right from your own mouth. You must be determined to discredit me in front of others, what is the reason for that Question Hatred
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:34 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Is there belief involved when one says,

"About god(s), I am agnostic"?


When the agnostic asserts that there is not enough information to come to a conclusion other than that, yes.


I DO NOT SEE ENOUGH UNAMBIGUOUS EVIDENCE UPON WHICH TO BASE A GUESS.

I have invited every theist I know to give me the information upon which he/she bases his/her guess about this -- but I've never gotten any bit of information that I see as reasonable to lead me to guess there is a God.

I have invited every atheist I know to give me the information upon which he/she bases his/her guess about this -- but I've never gotten any bit of information that I see as reasonable to lead me to guess there are not gods.

There is no belief involved here.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:37 pm
Ruach wrote:
What if an agnostic states God is stupid, God is cruel. Doesn't that leave the listener to have the opinion that the agnostic is leaning to a side of credibility of God that they claim they do not know exists.


Not if the agnostic is saying that the god described in the Bible is a murderous, jealous, quick to anger, vengeful, barbaric monster.

That is the kind of god described in the Bible. It is appropriate for an agnostic to mention that.

There is no belief involved there.

Read the Bible -- and you will see that the god described in it is all the things I've mentioned.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:38 pm
Quote:
Examine your own very un-Christian comments about Frank and quit your crusade against him here.


I have not even talked to frank. He says a lot to me. Such as stupid.
Show me my un-christian comments.

Aren't you being prejudiced against a christian here. YES, you are. I have no crusade against someone on a2k.

I might add that frank has responed to me at numerous times with crap.
so the thing I see you saying is since I am christian I am held to a higher standard and unchristians can curse and say personal digs, a little here and a little there.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:47 pm
Ruach wrote:
I asked a perfectly reasonable question in reference to no one.


This is a lie. You know who you were talking about just as well as I do.

Quote:
So you are unchristian and attack me because you want to back up unchristians on this site.


Not at all, and like I said I'm sick of you whining about the way your beliefs are treated. Anyone if perfectly free to think your god is idiotic just as you are free to think they are heathens who will burn in hell for eternity.

I'm telling you that contrary to what you think, saying that god is stupid is not against the rules and never will be.

Quote:
Thats it. I figured I could be reasonable and get atheists attacking a christian because of belief. I just don't want to be attacked personally. What is the standard here.


You make precious little sense. You are not being attacked. Your comments posts and opinions are being disagreed with.

You are asking for more than that. You are incessantly asking for your god not to be attacked either. Trying to shape this site's rules according to your religion.

Quote:
You must be determined to discredit me in front of others, what is the reason for that Question Hatred


No, and frankly that is laughable.

I care not a whit about discredtiting you and would certainly not waste my time "hating" you. Laughing

I am posting a disagreement to your continued crusade against Frank's position in regard to your god and telling you here to stiop pestering the Moderators.

I am telling you here because by email did not work. You incessantly pester the Moderators every single time someone says something negative about your religion.

And I am telling you yet again that the rules of this site are not such to protect your religion.

Members are free to hold whatever opinion they want about your religion. Just as you are free to hold whatever opinion you want about their beliefs.

There is no rule against calling god stupid. Those who think he is stupid are free to do so.

I care not a whit about discrediting you. What I do care about are your incessant pleas to get the site's rules adapted to your religion.

I care about your incessant pleas to get moderators to "punish" anyone who is negative about your religion.

Like I said, that is not the moderatopr's job and saying that god is stupid is not against the rules and never will be.

And yet again I am telling you that attacking the concept of god is not an attack on youso stop sending dozens of messages to us telling us to protect your god for you .
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:50 pm
Ruach wrote:

Show me my un-christian comments.


How many times have you told people to attack him and that he will burn in hell this week? How many times did you make up insipid names and tell people to call him those names? How vulgar were the names you started PMing around in your crusade?

Do you really think that your campaigns by PM to get people to call Frank the Anti-Christ would not be reported to me by anyone?

This is a response to your on-thread crusade, your messages to myself the moderator account and the report feature, and the many PM reports I get about you trying to get others to attack Frank and call him the anti-Christ.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:51 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Ruach wrote:
What if an agnostic states God is stupid, God is cruel. Doesn't that leave the listener to have the opinion that the agnostic is leaning to a side of credibility of God that they claim they do not know exists.


Not if the agnostic is saying that the god described in the Bible is a murderous, jealous, quick to anger, vengeful, barbaric monster.

That is the kind of god described in the Bible. It is appropriate for an agnostic to mention that.

There is no belief involved there.

Read the Bible -- and you will see that the god described in it is all the things I've mentioned.


But you have enough information to discredit another's beliefs? The God of the bible is also describes as a loving, caring, forgiving God who provided a world for man to inhabit, yet you repeatedly only choose to be derisive and inflammatory in your words on others Gods.

Is it because you lack belief that you need to stomp on others beliefs?

If you have no belief in God one way or another, it would seem that you should steer clear of the religious fora altogether as all you seem to do is make people angry with you.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:54 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Ruach wrote:

Show me my un-christian comments.


How many times have you told people to attack him and that he will burn in hell this week? How many times did you make up insipid names and tell people to call him those names? How vulgar were the names you started PMing around in your crusade?

Do you really think that your campaigns by PM to get people to call Frank the Anti-Christ would not be reported to me by anyone?

This is a response to your on-thread crusade, your messages to myself the moderator account and the report feature, and the many PM reports I get about you trying to get others to attack Frank and call him the anti-Christ.


Oh. Nevermind what I said then.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:54 pm
McGentrix,

No belief or opinion is untouchable. It's lame to try to negotiate immunity from disagreement.

Why shouldn't beliefs be challenged?

I would that they were challenged every day. Only weak beliefs need protection from challenges.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 02:59 pm
Everything you just said is a lie. You see I come to an agnostic post and ask a question and would like an answer.

If i contact a moderator , god forbid it is because they are smearing god. I don't want personal attacks against myself for my beliefs. I have never smeared anothers beliefs. Care to prove I have Question

Even your latest post is a lie. Keep on lying about what I have said.
I dont' tell people to say a thing. What a lie. You are trying to discredit me.
Quote:
How many times have you told people to attack him and that he will burn in hell this week? How many times did you make up insipid names and tell people to call him those names?

Do you really think that your campaigns by PM to get people to call Frank the Anti-Christ would not be reported to me by anyone?

Show me this proof. SHow it.

You go into personal messages. Mediators are not mediators, but show and tell for you?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:01 pm
It just seems to me that in order to discredit something, you should at least have a basic understanding of what it is you are discrediting. If one claims to have no belief, then how can one then turn around and discredit the beliefs of another?

I am not saying beliefs shouldn't be challenged, I am not a christian, yet I understand the beliefs that they hold.

This is one of the reason's I started this thread. To discover what an agnostic believes. Apparently, the answer is nothing. I can now hold an agnostics opinions on others beliefs in the appropriate light now.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:02 pm
Ruach,

Show PM's on a topic? LOL I could paste the reports I recieved but you'd just continue to lie about them and then you'd know who is reporting.

If the members that complained about your PMs wish to do so publically they can. They are under no obligation to.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:12 pm
I used to believe that Craven was the Anti-Christ, but then it occurred to me that as i have no good reason to believe the Christ fairy tale, that he must be the Anti-something else. I'm still working on just what that may be . . .
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:19 pm
Reports from other people is not suffecient. How about the original pm's
Mcgentrix has read your posts about me and has backed off of a very good answer to me. You are trying to discredit me.
When an agnostic speaks in only one direction regarding the Bible which he perceives to be negative or positive, it shows the direction of belief the agnostic is leaning toward, to be either theist-agnostics or atheist-agnostics.
In another post you mentioned a fool returns to his folly. As does a dog return to his vomit.

Do you dare to think that someone on this thread is the only agnostic that I know? I asked a legitimate reasonable question and you go berzerk.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:25 pm
Ruach wrote:
Reports from other people is not suffecient. How about the original pm's


Original PMs are only accessible from your account or that of those you sent it to. So your account is now frozen (so that you can't delete anything) and you have a choice.

You will need a new account to answer about your decision.

Choice 1: Your login will be reset and the login posted here so that others can see the "original" PMs as you demand. That is the only way to satisfy your demand for access to "original" PMs.

Choice 2: If the PMs are still there you can have me take screen shots of the PMs and post them.

Choice 3: You can quit lying and cut your losses.

Number 1 and number 2 satisfy your demands. I will be more than happy to oblige you.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:26 pm
I am sorry Ruach, Craven has proven to be an honorable fellow. I disagree with much he says, but I have never seen him lie.

Remember that this is a message board. When you turn the computer off, it goes away.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:34 pm
And I say you are the lying one. With you claiming I said things and they were reported to you. You know the old telephone game.
McGentrix wrote also what I see too happening.
Quote:
But you have enough information to discredit another's beliefs? The God of the bible is also describes as a loving, caring, forgiving God who provided a world for man to inhabit, yet you repeatedly only choose to be derisive and inflammatory in your words on others Gods.

Is it because you lack belief that you need to stomp on others beliefs?

If you have no belief in God one way or another, it would seem that you should steer clear of the religious fora altogether as all you seem to do is make people angry with you.


And then he reads your post and believes it and says in reply

Quote:
Never mind.


As you can see I do not have the pm's any longer. You slander and break your own posting rules.

I have been through much worse. Just now I know you better.
And I will continue to report personal digs on my personality, if a poster only has personal digs to back up his debate and if they are directing them to me personally. Otherwise I ignore digs. Like yours.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 03:40 pm
McGentrix, I have been called a lot of things. But pm's that i sent have not been correctly reported to Craven. And now he has formed such an opinion and desires others to believe him also.
I never told anyone to call someone else a name or to use any tone towards another poster. Never.
I think his post to me is prejudical because I have steadfast beliefs and he does not like me for them. To openly convict without evidence, what a cheap way to win a case. Inuendo, accusations, lies, he knows how the system works on a2k. And I don't. He used his knowledge of the system to openly attack me. He is what is wrong with things today. Judgment without evidence.
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