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How will God change people so completely (when they go to heaven)....

 
 
Oldmike
 
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 08:53 am
.....that they will be perfect and not be sinful? I am assuming that people will not sin in heaven, otherwise they will do evil things and then there will be suffering and injustice. If God can change people and make them sinless in the afterlife, then he could have done it from the beginning.
 
View best answer, chosen by Oldmike
Ragman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 09:20 am
@Oldmike,
Heaven went out of business. They had a fire sale and it all went to hell -- in a hand basket!
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 09:29 am
@Oldmike,
Oldmike wrote:

.....that they will be perfect and not be sinful? I am assuming that people will not sin in heaven, otherwise they will do evil things and then there will be suffering and injustice. If God can change people and make them sinless in the afterlife, then he could have done it from the beginning.


Not to mention, that if you get changed, then are you really the same person? If you can't sin, what changed? Did your freedom of choice get taken away? Was your memory wiped and certain concepts erased so you wouldn't be inclined to sin?

I there there is a very simple explanation, which is, heaven doesn't exist and there is no god.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 09:35 am
@Oldmike,
Why do people ... believers...want to make the after-life and resident spirits into people with flesh and possessing human motivations? Why do people think they've a clue what the alleged after-life is like? What do believers base it on? What are you basing it on? Wishful thinking?

Spirit world can have no personhood ..as they aren't people any more!

If this spirit has no flesh, why would it have a behavior and motivation that is human? If there is a God, why would he have a heaven set up the way you say?

No answer, right? Oh, wait ...I know...the answer is always ...it's an issue of faith!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 09:48 am
@Oldmike,
Half the angels in heaven at one time sin by rebelling again god and needed to be driven out so I guess you can indeed sin in heaven.

Lord the silliness that the bible lean itself to.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 10:37 am
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
-- in a hand basket!


Handcart surely, the Black Death and all that.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 11:16 am
@izzythepush,
As seen on Monty Python, "Bring out your Dead!"

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 11:24 am
@Ragman,
Or the title of a novel by the repulsive Richard Littlejohn. From Wikipedia.

Quote:
To Hell In A Handcart - named after another of his catchphrases, this is Littlejohn's first and only novel, based loosely on the Tony Martin case. The book was lambasted by critics for its portrayal of asylum seekers and the stereotypical individuals in the book, notably by The Independent's David Aaronovitch who described it as "a 400-page recruiting pamphlet for the British National Party"
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 11:24 am
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_snss6u0-WRI/Stabz8tQcYI/AAAAAAAADE4/AYWL03kpiN0/s400/believer-jerk.gif
0 Replies
 
mismi
  Selected Answer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 12:02 pm
@Oldmike,
If you are serious and really want to know - then of course if you believe God is all powerful and sovreign he could have made us perfect from the beginning. Automatons that have no will and no ability to make choices. But - for whatever reason (he is God after all - he doesn't have to make sense to please me) he gave us the ability to choose right from wrong.

Whether you believe this is a crutch for the weak minded here on earth, or that there is a powerful force (God) in charge, the idea of an afterlife has always been a possibility. We just don't know. But if God is actually God - and all powerful - he can do whatever he chooses. If he chooses to bring those who were seekers of him to a place in the afterlife - then it stands to reason he would want it to be perfect and not a whole other Garden of Eden scenario.

But seriously - you just have to come to the point of being happy with the idea that you WANT to believe (there are some of us that do) and therefore will believe, or that you reject it totally as pishposh. And the decision is one you have to be comfortable with in spite of what others think. Because they will try to make you feel like an ass about it - from both sides (the believers and the non-believers). It's human nature.

But live by your conscience you must.

In other words - it is a mystery. Faith is required. Some do NOT like the idea of faith...though it is a sure thing...in one manner or another.



Oldmike
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 12:36 pm
@Ragman,
Cute but not serious
0 Replies
 
Oldmike
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 12:42 pm
@mismi,
Thanks for taking the time to be serious.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 01:39 pm
@Oldmike,
Oldmike wrote:
.....that they will be perfect and not be sinful?
They're already "perfect" and not sinful. There's no such thing as sin except in the human mind. There's nothing to change and no god to change it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 01:52 pm
@rosborne979,
Priests created "sin". First you cpoulnt eat meat on a Friday on the occasion of it being a mortal sin. Today, go fer it like a cannibal.

Were not even sure what the top 5 big "sins" are. Christian heavens are all different from cult to cult. Muslim "heaven" is based on Karl Barts rule of Islamic creed (To command good and setroy evil), And Jews dont even believe in a heaven.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 01:53 pm
@rosborne979,
At the age of ten or so the story of the rebellion in heaven was so illogical for an all powerful god to had suffer from his own main agents the angels , that is was the end of any believes in such nonsense.

I then classify the god story with the Santa Claus story that adults was selling to children.

Being somewhat shock to later find out that most adults believe or claim to believe in the god story unlike the Santa Claus story.
idolhater
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 02:24 pm
@Oldmike,
God can but won't change people.
You achieve higher levels in the hereafter to the extent
that you grow your own soul through the tests of this world.
Or you just rot in your egocentric mind refusing to
to see.
0 Replies
 
idolhater
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 02:27 pm
@BillRM,
Don't count on stories.
Use your own senses.
God guides whom he wills.
0 Replies
 
idolhater
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 02:31 pm
@mismi,
Well said.
Faith is believing in the unseen the reward of
faith is seeing what you believe!
Krumple
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 03:37 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:

If you are serious and really want to know - then of course if you believe God is all powerful and sovreign he could have made us perfect from the beginning. Automatons that have no will and no ability to make choices.


No he would rather make beings he will punish for making choices that he randomly chooses to disagree with. Here is the thing, nothing HAS to be a sin technically. Why are certain things sins to begin with? Because god chooses these things or does something else determine them to be sin and for got to remain godly he can't accept it? If he is all powerful then sin is something that even god could over come without any need to resent it, yet for some reason doesn't. In other words this sounds like more human created male cow feces because it makes absolutely no sense.

mismi wrote:

But - for whatever reason (he is God after all - he doesn't have to make sense to please me) he gave us the ability to choose right from wrong.


He gave you the ability to chose right from wrong? Really? So why are there so many lessons in the bible about how to treat your slaves? Are you saying that it is actually right to own and beat your slaves? We just are ignoring this god given right? Interesting that people in the past couldn't figure this out and it took almost 2000 years to do so. God is a little slow on the uptake I think. Or wait, maybe it has something to do with, god is a man made concept and these ideas behind how to treat slaves was a old life style that we have determined to be barbaric and cruel? I think if god gave us the ability to know right from wrong, things would have been better for long ago.

mismi wrote:

Whether you believe this is a crutch for the weak minded here on earth, or that there is a powerful force (God) in charge, the idea of an afterlife has always been a possibility.


True it is a possibility but 99.999999% unlikely.

mismi wrote:

We just don't know. But if God is actually God - and all powerful - he can do whatever he chooses. If he chooses to bring those who were seekers of him to a place in the afterlife - then it stands to reason he would want it to be perfect and not a whole other Garden of Eden scenario.


Gods quality assurance test right? He makes them and then tests them out to see if they are good enough for his consumption? Sounds like a really nice guy. If I were a god, I wouldn't put any beings through such a scenario. But I don't think this life is a test of any kind and I don't think there are any gods or god. This life has it's bad aspects because it has nothing authoritative over it.

mismi wrote:

But seriously - you just have to come to the point of being happy with the idea that you WANT to believe (there are some of us that do) and therefore will believe, or that you reject it totally as pishposh. And the decision is one you have to be comfortable with in spite of what others think. Because they will try to make you feel like an ass about it - from both sides (the believers and the non-believers). It's human nature.


The problem is, when things are accepted on no basis then forced onto others to accept them or pay with their lives or pay with their finances then it must call into question it's validity.

mismi wrote:

But live by your conscience you must.


Who says?

mismi wrote:

In other words - it is a mystery. Faith is required. Some do NOT like the idea of faith...though it is a sure thing...in one manner or another.


You say it is a sure thing, but there is nothing that supports that statement what so ever. Those who do not know but wish to know, use faith. Those who know, don't need faith. In other words, faith is useless and only necessary if you want to support nonsensical ideas.
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Sat 7 Jan, 2012 06:17 pm
@idolhater,
idolhater wrote:

Well said.
Faith is believing in the unseen the reward of
faith is seeing what you believe!
Faith is interchangeable with delusion. Faith is NOT a good thing.
0 Replies
 
 

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