RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 12:21 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

That's a pretty ambiguous statement. I am not sure what I read in it is what you wrote.


Feel free to read into it however it strikes you.

Everything that is seems to be the demise of nothing. Can nothing exist in the midst of everything? And how would science be able to quantify nothing when nothing theoretically does not exist? The zero event horizon is a mystery even to science. Before the big bang there is much speculation and speculation does not science make.

How does one observe nothing (space) and not being able to observe it does not negate its existence in nonexistence, neither does it define the attributes of whatever existed before even "time" existed.

Knowing these apparent failings of physical science to define the pre-big bang universe leaves many things on the table, one thing left on the table is there is (possibly) a "god" whose realm is imperceptible... I prefer the uncertainty of not knowing this answer firmly over possibly being certain either way but wrong.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 01:08 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I sense that my opinions would not be welcome, as I hold the view that speculations about metaphorical deities and their celestial servants in such a context as this does not constitute wisdom.
Please forgive my intrusion.

Your opinions ARE welcome even if you think I am full of ****. Smile I have a hard shell and do not make enemies often even if I disagree with their thoughts.

I consider wisdom as knowledge that had been applied.

When it comes to the universe some see the earth, its moon and sun and the phenomenon of life itself as being too coincidental and pointing to an intelligent design. Intelligence denotes wisdom. Even without a divine hand the universe is intelligently designed. The universe is certainly not an unintelligent place because of human intelligence and consciousness through evolution being a product of its design.

This does not mean that the bible or the god of the bible are related to the intelligence that may have had part in the universe and its humble beginning (if there even was a beginning)

It is simply logical that intelligence begets intelligence. Whether if that intelligence is written within atoms, energy, the sun or even DNA is still an arguable point. To throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because the religious have hijacked God seems ignorant. Whatever forces that be within atoms and zero event horizons and/or god it seems more like a knee jerk reaction rather that one derived from applied knowledge to dismiss or insist upon there being an intelligent beginning.

No one will argue that we do not exist. If we did not exist that would be a point for those who deny a creator. Since we DO exist that points goes towards a creator. Yet the game is not yet won... there are many more questions or rounds to this game that should be considered.

Just because we give points to a creator does not produce a creator. We see only the evidence of a creator but the creator itself is seemingly mute. This leaves the religious to step into the void and manipulate people with fear and promises of paradise. This heinous masquerade still does not negate God nor does it prove God. It simply just proves that people will believe and disbelieve without proof or "wisdom".

Spontaneous creation without a god or any intelligence whatsoever is just a guess too, where wisdom needs science with rigorous testing, measurement, statements, reasons, axioms, postulates, theorems, assumptions and observation over time to prove there is such a thing as spontaneous creation possible. Something created the universe or it simply would not exist. It is expanding from the big bang to where and within what, we do not know. All we know is we exist and we have some semblance of intelligence. Whether if this human intelligence is an image of a creator is still unanswered.

Perhaps being "sure" that celestial servants and deities don't exist is just as ignorant as believing in false deities with no proof to back that claim up.

I see very little difference between atheists and religious fanatics, they are both seemingly sure of something or an idea of which they have no proof.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 07:46 am
@RexRed,
As I understand it, "nothing" is simply a concept. It is a modification or extension of the concept "thing".
The usefulness of the concept "nothing" lies in evaluating and communicating perception, and in every single place the word "nothing" is used, it refers to "something which is absent" by context.

Space is not nothing, it is space. Relative to things that traditionally occupy space, we might say that there is nothing, but that is more of a figure of speech.
"I opened a drawer to take out my pencils, but there was nothing there."
There was just empty space, but the referral to the pencils makes "nothing" meaningful.

The distinction existence/non-existence is meaningful in a very limited application. If we say, for instance, that unicorns don't exist, that means that there are no such things as unicorns in the animal population of planet. They do exist as mythical beings.

The idea of a pre-big bang universe isn't so much a failing of that theory as it is a matter of human logic extended beyond it's boundaries. The belief in a universal timeline may not be accurate. Linear time is another human concept, useful in our daily lives, but it may be that the universe itself has no such timeline. In quantum physics the concept of time is very different, and so is the concept of location.
It is, for instance, possible for one "object" to be in two places at once.
It is also possible to change the state of a system "in the past" by introducing changes in the present. By altering the current state of the system, the previous state is also altered. If the changes then are made to a system that in a previous state was part of several other systems, those other systems will also react to the change.
So time flows differently on the sub atomic levels of reality, and this might be an indication that the big bang theory isn't entirely accurate.
The big bang theory is a "story of progression" that is assembled from many different facts, and when people say that the theory is true, that is because the facts are correct. That doesn't mean that the relations we establish between them are correct. The theory was created by a Belgian physicist who was also a priest. He used the same model of progression as the biblical genesis, and created a story of how the world came to be. The linear progression of both these stories is necessary for human beings to relate to them. So the big bang theory isn't really objective fact. It is a subjective (for all humans) interpretation of objective facts.

Newer research into unified field theory suggest that in it's most fundamental state, the universe is a singularity. Some might call this singularity, from which everything springs, God.
But what is God? It is a concept, an idea we humans have. To me, debating the existence/non-existence of God is a futile exercise.
The man-in-the-sky interpretation of God is an obvious and foolish anthropomorphism, a children's tale. But the idea of a primal cause, one singular force that is the origin of everything, that idea is not foolish, and it is what both religion and science works towards understanding.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 10:47 am
@RexRed,
Quote:
I see very little difference between atheists and religious fanatics, they are both seemingly sure of something or an idea of which they have no proof.


Atheism isn't really a belief. It is a rejection of a belief; the rejection of the belief in deities. As I understand it it is essentially an objection to anthropomorphism.
But the statement "I am an atheist" says that a person rejects the existence of deities. It does not say anything about what that person does believe, so atheism is not a belief. It is merely negative theism.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 01:41 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
I see very little difference between atheists and religious fanatics, they are both seemingly sure of something or an idea of which they have no proof.


Atheism isn't really a belief. It is a rejection of a belief; the rejection of the belief in deities. As I understand it it is essentially an objection to anthropomorphism.
But the statement "I am an atheist" says that a person rejects the existence of deities. It does not say anything about what that person does believe, so atheism is not a belief. It is merely negative theism.


An atheist believes that they don't believe in God. An agnostic believes that knowing is not at this point possible. A theist believes in belief (or faith) in God.

An atheist has faith that their unbelief is just. Atheists take a position and put their own belief in it. Thus in the void of God they can easily perceive themselves as God not having a higher power to submit to.. Do they believe in God? No, but do atheists have a belief concerning God? Yes...

If there is a God atheists may be judged by this belief that God does not exist. Do you believe there is no God? Atheist thoughts that are put forth as truth contain belief within them. Some atheists are quite fervent about their "beliefs". Atheism IS a belief surrounding the subject of God. Smile

Is atheism a religious belief? Yes. With God out of the picture an atheist can merely exalt themselves to the level of deism without impunity (much like a totalitarian tyrant). Atheism leaves an authoritarian void where consideration of a God once was and this only invites worship of others and self instead. Agnosticism at least leaves the possibly that self deism could be stepping on the toes of a God that is yet unknown for whatever reasons that be.

Atheism is a religious belief of self deism or the deism of others. They do not realize this is the case because they have no conception of the void being filled by other radical ideas that are just as toxic as misguided faith.

Both atheism and and deism, without the burden of proof on either front, lead to the very same radical disingenuous spirit.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 02:08 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

In quantum physics the concept of time is very different, and so is the concept of location.
It is, for instance, possible for one "object" to be in two places at once.


So you are saying it is possible to be both inside the tent and outside the tent at the same time? So it is possible for God to be in Jesus dying on the cross and also in heaven raising himself from the dead? It is possible for Jesus to be totally in the flesh and totally in the spirit at the same time? It seems the Bible (or those interpreting the bible) have the same belief as you do... they simply attach the logic to different objects of worship and reverence.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 06:05 pm
@RexRed,
I am saying that the rules of the universe at the micro cosmic level are not the same as the rules on the macro cosmic level.
If Jesus is a person on the macro cosmic level, I would not presume to use these ideas in relation to him.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2011 11:50 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I am saying that the rules of the universe at the micro cosmic level are not the same as the rules on the macro cosmic level.
If Jesus is a person on the macro cosmic level, I would not presume to use these ideas in relation to him.


I see your point but there is the argument that we as intelligent beings on the grand level may be vastly inferior to the intelligence anatomy of the macro level.

Consider a human being's body physique can be summed up by a series of numbers derived from our genes. Are our consciousnesses and memories, "soul" also a series of numbers perhaps all stored in an atom sized particle somewhere within our brains recording our mental consciousness. Just as we can take computers and reveal our DNA code our minds may have their own code stored within atoms by our brains perhaps hidden abilities.

These atoms may never forget who we are or were and may be again someday. We have no clue as to the purpose of atoms and why they are used to comprise matter and hence biology, environment.

Were are all connected by the atoms, this is not speculation this is the ultimate truth of physical science. What biology can do with atoms renders human invention as primitive.

We have no idea what life really does with atoms. We can try to mimic its functions but we are simply just that... simple, compared the level of biology. We do not know how many levels of magnitude go beyond the biological or even the atomic. As each level goes down the physique and perfection of form and intelligence may increase on an exponential magnitude successively at a rate that is imperceptibly vast. Like how gravity has a force on mass. The forms of the biology within atoms may be like spirits, they move much faster than neutrinos because they are a level down. The may have quantities of intelligence of the eons.

If you were created into a lush rain forest you would never know the diversity of life if you were born with no senses with which to perceive that level. We can only try and poke and prod the atomic particles and see what happens but otherwise its hidden world is purely a mystery. We can see examples where the atomic world is transformed into enormous stars, planets, black holes various energies and perhaps even infinity. We are like a speck of dust to that place.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 08:18 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Let me see... god is a moral form, ye?
Today, in the field of understanding reality, in physics, god is mostly irrelevant.
Is this because the ideas behind god have been plundered of their meaning, or is it because the very concept is useless in explaining anything?

Also, if an infinite absolute needs ideas behind them, how are they infinite and absolute if these ideas can alter?
Yes, God is a moral form... Even behind science and physics stand many moral forms, like truth, or existence, which are meanings without being, as even space, or time might well be considered; so that the ultimate value of science is found in its practical value rather than for itself, as knowledge... Many of our moral forms have been robbed of their meaning, and God is sort of an anachronism as forms go, a lot like Feudalism or the Ptolemaic conception of the solar system which it the Church so supported... The church is an example of a social form built upon moral forms, and while the moral form of God or gods once stood as science does today, to explain all, as theory; now God exists by way of explaining much about us, our fears of death and powerlessness, and loneliness...Children all go through the same beliefs as humanity once did, and what we once were we can never fully escape, but some people do not even discount their beliefs taken alike from their childhoods and the childhood of mankind... I am not saying they should dispose of their beliefs... I am saying that our beliefs have a great lesson to teach us if we do not confuse the lesson they teach with them as lessons to be learned uncritically... We are likely to get as much out of the Bible as we bring to it by way of intelligence, learning and emotional development... I have read in the Bible and the Holy Qu'ran... I have read much more of study on the Bible than I have read of the Bible since it has been much studied and been through many translations, one can only benefit by the scholarship of others.. And still it remains that God is a moral form, and that the significance of God rests little on the power of God, and rests mostly on the evil people will do out of the certainty that they are doing good... Certainty is the name of evil... It is the actions taken by the certain that the uncertain refrain from that makes them a scourge...And science gives rise to certainty as well, and when unchained from moral considerations is death..

All moral forms are infinites just as physical forms are finites... All ideas are absolutes... A pound of sugar is absolutely equal to a pound of iron at least so far as wight can be determined... We know all imperfect reality by way of absolutely perfect ideas...We recognize the real justice we see in life by the perfect notion of justice we never find in reality... Forms are not real... Even social forms are never what they appear to be... There is no perfect marriage or government though each may be predicated upon perfect principals....
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 08:29 am
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

Let me see... god is a moral form, ye?
Today, in the field of understanding reality, in physics, god is mostly irrelevant.
Is this because the ideas behind god have been plundered of their meaning, or is it because the very concept is useless in explaining anything?

Also, if an infinite absolute needs ideas behind them, how are they infinite and absolute if these ideas can alter?


Nothing is only altered by everything. Smile
You can put space in a box, but as soon as you try to peek at it you have connected it to all other space, and find it is without bounds or definition... And if you try to keep it in the box you cannot even be certain that it has remained what it was while you weren't looking...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 08:32 am
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

That's a pretty ambiguous statement. I am not sure what I read in it is what you wrote.


Feel free to read into it however it strikes you.

Everything that is seems to be the demise of nothing. Can nothing exist in the midst of everything? And how would science be able to quantify nothing when nothing theoretically does not exist? The zero event horizon is a mystery even to science. Before the big bang there is much speculation and speculation does not science make.

How does one observe nothing (space) and not being able to observe it does not negate its existence in nonexistence, neither does it define the attributes of whatever existed before even "time" existed.

Knowing these apparent failings of physical science to define the pre-big bang universe leaves many things on the table, one thing left on the table is there is (possibly) a "god" whose realm is imperceptible... I prefer the uncertainty of not knowing this answer firmly over possibly being certain either way but wrong.
Nothing, like time, are moral forms... They have existence only because of our own... They have a meaning without being, and that meaning is their being because we give it to them, and treat it as such...
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 03:29 pm
@RexRed,
Quote:
I see your point but there is the argument that we as intelligent beings on the grand level may be vastly inferior to the intelligence anatomy of the macro level.


What do you mean by "the grand level"?
As I understand it, there is the perception of the world as we perceive it, with human beings, animals, mountains, starts, moons, asteroids and planets.
Then there is the micro cosmic level which is really the same world described in terms of sub-atomic phenomenon.

Quote:
Consider a human being's body physique can be summed up by a series of numbers derived from our genes. Are our consciousnesses and memories, "soul" also a series of numbers perhaps all stored in an atom sized particle somewhere within our brains recording our mental consciousness. Just as we can take computers and reveal our DNA code our minds may have their own code stored within atoms by our brains perhaps hidden abilities.


This seems to assume that the mind derives from the body; that consciousness is a product of biological activity. That is an assumption, and however reasonable it sounds, there is no actual proof or evidence that this is the case.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 03:41 pm
@Fido,
From what you write I get the sense that "moral forms" are similar to the "world of ideas" that Plato talked about.
The concept of moral forms seems redundant to me, just another word for "concept".
You say "God is a moral form". But what if God is pure fiction?
Is "unicorn" a moral form?
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 05:13 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

From what you write I get the sense that "moral forms" are similar to the "world of ideas" that Plato talked about.
The concept of moral forms seems redundant to me, just another word for "concept".
You say "God is a moral form". But what if God is pure fiction?
Is "unicorn" a moral form?


http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/004/cache/black-rhino_468_600x450.jpg

Smile
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2011 07:08 pm
@RexRed,
Haha! Nice try Rex Smile
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 06:41 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

From what you write I get the sense that "moral forms" are similar to the "world of ideas" that Plato talked about.
The concept of moral forms seems redundant to me, just another word for "concept".
You say "God is a moral form". But what if God is pure fiction?
Is "unicorn" a moral form?
There is no world of ideas, and even the ideas, the theory of forms that Plato had was incorrect as I understand it... Just as theology broke from philosophy in the Middle ages, there has always been a sort of division in philosophy from pure physics, or science, and ethics... Well one could call moral forms ethical forms because so much of our ethical behavior when it is idealized at all must be communicated by way of ideas and forms like God or Justice, or Honor which cannot really be defined, while having a certain spiritual meaning... I have no idea whether the term I am using is correct, but I do know that from Roman times Moral has been the synonym for Ethical as Ciciro coined the term... Since it is common to refer to the health of a body of men, like an army, by the term physic, for physical condition, and morale for the spiritual condition, so it seems fair to use the term for all the many spiritual qualities we desire or abhore that on examination cannot be defined no matter how many examples are produced...

So; what if God is pure fiction??? First, God is hardly pure since we put so much into him; but we also take a lot out of him... Fiction or not, being or not, individual or not, to say of God, that God is a cause is certainly hypothetical, and so an attempt at science... But just as the science of the Greeks even reached the point of putting forward a nuclear hypothesis, because of the primitive state of technology the hypothesis had to remain only that for a couple of thousand years...The rational proof for the existence of God is an exercise long rejected by most religions... Faith is more certain that knowledge to the believers, so I would say that God is not the goal and knowledge is not the goal; but that the goal of religion has long been met by certainty which is so much better than knowing, for knowledge is always uncertain, and certainty is the rejection of undertainty on faith, and for that reason, while the religious are capable of good to a slight extent, their capacity for harm is unbounded... One should remember especially when talking of Christians, that the suffix was used to denote one as the slave of another, so that Christians are the slaves of Christ... If this were so there would be no church, and Christians would all give their lives as Christ commanded, loving one another...I think, that if one were to examine the God worshipped in the churches of America, one would find two... One is the old Scandinavian god, called Wish; and one would be Certainty...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 06:50 am
@RexRed,
"Evil" is a consequence of the loss of the antediluvian communication system; "evolution" is a bunch of bullshit.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 12:25 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

"Evil" is a consequence of the loss of the antediluvian communication system; "evolution" is a bunch of bullshit.


Once again, a statement with zero backing up of facts and serious scientific analysis. The bible has so many errors that it can't even hold water.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 12:25 pm
Long-sought 'God Particle' cornered, scientists say

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45653534/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.TueYLmMk6dA
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 02:05 pm
Okay, this thread has been officially derailed by none other than myself, with a little help. Smile

I suppose I need to focus the discussion...

Angels
0 Replies
 
 

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