Souls

IMO for whatever it is worth ... I see living spirit in
a tree. So, naturally would there also be in a pet.
What we SEE with our eyes, is physical manifestation.
People say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
probably because we each SEE differently.
A law of physics says that energy can neither be created
nor destroyed - but can only be transformed. I see your
pet (dog, cat ) bounding along toward you and FULL OF
ENERGY. Where that energy goes when it stops being
within your pet?? We can only guess, because no one
has come back to tell the tale - SO what do we KNOW?
Nothing?? Less than nothing.........
Except for that law of physics...
And the memory of your beloved pet when it was more
than a lifeless lump of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen
and so on.
Craven says this is a comforting thought. And I agree.
It certainly is.
Maybe even more than that. ???????????????

And by the way -I sincerely agree with
TEX-STAR.
I personally have no use for religions.
Religions separate people from each other.
One group believes that their way is the only way.
Another group says the 1st group are going straight
to hell.
All religion does is create more and more separation
among us. We could use a little less separation,
and a little more togetherness.
at ...one ... ment

There are two different questions that need to be answered; one is whether or not soul exists (in humans and animals), and what a soul is.

Whether it exists is according to one's belief that someone or something deserves loving care. This idea and belief do not presuppose whether that's a matter of animal rights. You would agree that a pet deserves it if you devote your loving care till the end of its life, whether it dies naturally or someone has it euthanized (like someone's dog or Dolly).

Belief in practicing love causes another belief that, in someone or something that would receive the love, there exists what we call soul in order for it to comprehend and appreciate the love. Such a belief system is common among children, and there is no proof that such a system is incompatible to that of adults, or it's wrong or immoral.

What a soul is, would be a different question, and as Terry had written it could be a mind; or it could be a spirit in addition to the functions of body and mind, as something that interceds between or among humans (and animals and other creatures) by delivering the energy of love.

The body and mind are one and the same. One cannot exist without the other. c.i.

One that coexists
I never meant that soul, mind and body exist separately. They coexist.

Back in the days of radios and B&W TV sets, my father left his dog far from the vicinity and came home, riding a bicycle. Days later, the dog came back when my mother was working in the backyard. The dog leaned on my mother's leg, collapsed, and died. My parents had a tough time getting over with it.

Dacades later, my mother called me in the office, crying and saying that her dog died naturally in her arms. She and her dog shared the final moment, and there must have been a bond between them to foresee it was such a moment, so that the dog came to my mother and she held the dog in her arms.

A pet deserves loving care and that is metaphysically correct. I believed it then, and believe it now.

There is no need to argue religion in order to discuss spirituality of soul. I'm Episcopalian, my mother a buddhist, my father new age, his father a Jesuit priest, and the dogs and my cats? They all shared the philosophy of soul.

meta, Love exists without religion. "Soul" is only the thoughts, actions, and emotions of any individual or animal. Whether soul survives after death is a question we will never answer. Do you remember the orphans of Boznia? They did not receive any human love or handling during their infancy, and they grew older without having any emotional expressions. They did not smile nor cry. They lacked soul. c.i.

My old man, thanks for your thoughts. I'm leaving this subject but I see you somewhere else. Pls say hi to the person who started this forum.

c.i., no soul? I don't know about that. Some neighbors in Michigan adopted a child from an orphanage but I forget which country. She was, as if frozen, no expression, deadpan. But, within a week she laughed. It just happened, surprised her. After that she laughed a lot, was fine.

Sometimes I think our mind shuts down but it could be a defense mechanism. Someone so tiny with a wounded soul, or spirit. Some are not so lucky as they grow older it's more difficult. But, apparently nobody abused this little child and she probably had been loved. It's the soul that remembers a parent's love.

That little dog remembered his mum's love.

Tex-Star

tex, It's fortunate that that one child was saved. But how many remained in their shell? c.i.

My personal opinion - I like to believe that we humans are special in the sense that we have souls and other animals do not. That's my opinion and I will shoosh my mouth now :wink:

souls
C_B, your spiritual opinnion is noted and appreciated. Some of us do not embrace the concept of soul because of its "supernatural" connotations and non-empirical nature. Others like to think of the concept as a metaphor for our quality of consciousness. Unlike other animals, for example, we are self-conscious and know that we will someday die. This makes us both fortunate and unfortunate. In this sense I like to think of us as not HAVING souls but as BEING souls. Just another opinion, of course.

JLN, Did you know that elephants show sorrow when one of the member in their group dies? c.i.

souls
C.I., yes, I've heard that, and its implication, if I read between your lines correctly, is that we should not reserve for our species qualities that might be shared by others. I agree wholeheartedly. That would be very arrogant indeed.
By the way, my response to C_B earlier could also stand some qualification. When I suggested that, metaphorically, we ARE souls rather than bodies HAVING souls, I actually like to think--and I must stress that this is what I would like to be the case, not that this is, or that I even believe it to be the case--that we are part of a totality, not separate beings surrounded by a Cosmic totality, and whatever it's nature may be (orderly or chaotic) that is what I am--my soul-ness is, like a facet of an -non-finite soul. There is, in this way of intuiting, only one soul, and all things (including elephants) are part of it. Therefore, I do not think that "self-consciousness" is an awareness of soul; it's when we lose our self-consciousness, or ego (or at least see it for what it is) that we are aware of our soul-ness, our spiritual nature. I have no objective way of knowing that this is so. If I did I would enthusiastically share my evidence with you. It's just an orientation, a way of framing my deeply personal/subjective experience.

I've heard so many stories of how dogs have gone into sorrow when their owner/master have passed away. The abilities of many different animals to have feelings is not unique to humans, but the ability of humans to communicate history from one generation to the next may be unique in the animal kingdom. I'm not so sure of that, because many animals seem to follow some genetic patterns of habit for survival. Too bad we still do not understand animal language. c.i.

souls
C.I., I agree that what DOES distinguish us from other animals is our ability to "communicate history from one generation to the next." This is what anthropologists call culture, an inventory of experiences, thoughts, discoveries, inventions, actions, encoded (in language) and stored (either in writing or orally in stories) and communicated across generations. This way we do not have to continuously solve all our problems from scratch. We know how to farm, hunt or raise animals, build houses, cure illness, etc. etc. because of cultural lessons decoded from that large inventory of information called culture. There is some evidence of what might be called proto-culture in other higher order species, but they do not encode experiences symbolically as we do.

JLN, Sorry if my post sounded like an argument; rather, it was only an expansion on my thinking on this subject. c.i.

souls
C.I., and that's exactly how I took it. Your comment also permitted me to make the expansion of describing part of what I understand to be the meaning of culture and its contribution to a definition of humaness. That's the nature of good conversation. Each comment leads to another (a response), where there is disagreement (not discord), a dialectic forms where each is influenced by the other in constructive ways. This has been the general shape of my interactions with you. Thank God.

amen. c.i.

*pffrrrreeetttt!* Oops, excuse me, just passing some soul.&
Now this is interesting. The prime example of ultimate inquery, what happens to us when we die. Oh our bodies surely decompose and that dead matter is recycled through the ecosystem, but what about that thing called a soul? I am more inclined to agree with the notion that souls are the "embodiement" of our own psyches. If God truly does judge ones soul then the soul must be comprised of a person's thoughts, morals, and recollection of ones deeds--defining the human conscience to a T.
Some very good points have made concerning this subject, especially the ones relating to fetal conception and the period of "soul-instillment". I'm in full agreement that the organic brain is integral to the sustainment of the soul, for the time that our soul is on Earth that is. Before continuing let me elaborate my personal belief. Yes, I think there is a supreme being responsible for Creation. Yes, I believe that there is some purpose to our existence. Now as to what religions consider ultimate salvation, well, let's just say potato and potata. Religion is a totally different subject than whether or not a soul is a viable noun. This may be a bit of a leap--though when it comes to theology there is nothing shorter than a leap when it comes to the study of the field--I think that God, this supreme being, designed our souls to be electrical matter, which incidently is HOUSED in an organic brain for the duration of this trial period of life--the trainging ground so to speak for whatever awaits us in his realm of being.
There are some interesting theories being investigated in the fields of parapsychology as to what the soul is comprised. For instance, "para-scientists" have found that psychicaly gifted persons are more susceptable to electronic stimulation. This is as if the awareness of a person is directly related to the EM field being produced by their brain synapses. I find it intriguing to say the least. Is awareness the key to this qeustion? It IS the general assumption that only self-aware species have souls. So if the ability for awareness determines the potential of having a soul, and if awareness is tied to electrical sensitivity and stimulation, then wouldn't it be plausable that a soul is derived from the electricity coursing through our brains at this moment? who knows, only time will tell in the end.
Inquisitively,
John Allen