4
   

CONRAD MURRAY, M.D. DEFENDANT: WHATAYATHINK???

 
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 02:03 am
@hawkeye10,
But Jackson was not presented as a freak--by either the defense or the prosecution. He was the father of three children who loved him very much, and he was a son and a brother in a family that loved him, and the prosecution highlighted those facts, which helped to humanize him and neutralize the freak factor.

Jackson certainly had drug dependencies, on various tranquilizers, but he was shown as excited about his upcoming tour, and obviously able to handle the demands of rehearsal, despite whatever drugs he was using. And the Propofol that killed him isn't a drug of abuse--it's surgical anesthesia administered by a physician. Jackson had never self administered that drug--that's why he hired Murray.

I'm not confident the jury will convict, juries can be unpredictable, but I think they should convict. I don't think that anyone on that jury would ever want to be treated by a doctor who acted as recklessly and negligently as Conrad Murray did with Jackson. Murray may not be an evil man, and I'm sure he didn't want to kill Jackson, but he sold his soul for money--the promise of $150,000 a month, for which he gave up his medical practice so he could be available to Jackson 24/7--and he was willing to compromise his medical ethics, and appropriate standards of medical care and patient safety, in order to hold onto that money, and, in effect, his greed wound up killing his patient. If the jury sees it that way, even if they feel sympathy for Murray, they will convict him. Had it not been for Murray, Jackson would not have died that day, and that's the bottom line. As the physician, Murray was the person with the legal obligations to maintain a certain standard of patient care and patient safety. It's crazy to blame Jackson for anything in that regard.

If the jury doesn't convict, the Jackson family will go wild. They had wanted him him charged with second degree murder. I can't really blame them.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 08:12 am
@firefly,
DAVID wrote:
In my opinion, it was more likely than not
that decedent self administered the Propofol, in a successful effort
to defeat the Dr.'s reluctance n caution.
firefly wrote:
Are you aware that MJ was hooked up to an IV and also had a condom catheter bag on his penis?
It would not have been easy for him to get up and move about the room.
R u aware that people can do a LOT of things,
if thay r sufficiently MOTIVATED ?
I knew of the IV, but not the bag.




firefly wrote:
The scenario of self-administration was not likely.
U fail to consider the effects of DESPERATION. No one denies that he was desperate to sleep.





firefly wrote:
This was anesthesia that Murray gave him by IV.
If Jackson had been awake, and needed more Propofol, Murray would likely have given it to him.
Maybe; maybe not. He said that he was weaning him off of it.





firefly wrote:
The doctor in this case was not showing either reluctance or caution--he had been giving MJ
nightly infusions of Propofol--without proper safeguards.
He said that he was weaning him off of it,
such that he had not used Propofol for 3 nites b4 the last one.






firefly wrote:
If MJ self administered the final dose of Propofol, while Murray was out of the room, Murray would still be guilty of manslaughter under California law, because he should have foreseen that possibility and not left Jackson alone with access to that dangerous drug--that was his legal responsibility as a physician.
If I were on that jury, I 'd nullify that law, by voting to acquit.






firefly wrote:
Murray didn't just leave the room for two minutes to go the bathroom--that was a lie. He spent about 45 minutes on his cell phone talking to his girl friends, checking his e-mail, and sending text messages--the phone records were part of the evidence in the trial. He was talking to one of his girlfriends when he apparently finally become aware that MJ wasn't breathing. He should have been watching, and monitoring, Jackson during those 45 minutes--he had given him anesthesia.
Not knowing that MJ had pushed the Propofol, be thawt that MJ was only moderately sedated.




firefly wrote:
That's the reason this drug is always given in a hospital or surgical suite setting, with more than one medical person in attendance--you can't walk out and leave the patient alone, let alone for 45 minutes while you are busy doing other things.
Do u know for a fact that he was out of the room that long??





firefly wrote:
Since you didn't watch the trial, or hear all of the evidence,
I can't understand how you could reach the conclusion that Conrad Murray is not guilty.
There is abundant reasonable doubt of guilt
based on the desperation of MJ to secretly take more sedatives, personally.





firefly wrote:
We aren't talking about a physician who recklessly prescribes drugs to someone who then abuses them and possibly kills himself.

We are talking about a physician who departed from all known standards of medical care by administering surgical anesthesia, by IV, in someone's bedroom for the treatment of insomnia, for which that anesthesia is not used or considered medically appropriate, and he did so without having the essential monitoring and resusitation equipment which is necessary to prevent death from that drug.
I think that it was accidental suicide.




firefly wrote:
And that's why his patient died. Propofol often causes cessation of breathing--that's why anesthesiologists
must carefully monitor a patient receiving it for surgery, so they can reverse that effect immediately.
If I remember the news accurately, a defense expert attested
that he coud not have died from the slight amount of Propofol that defendant administered.




firefly wrote:
The fact that Murray gave Jackson Propofol, at all, including the day he died, was criminal negligence for a physician in that setting. And, to leave a patient unattended, at all, with either an IV Propofol drip, or Propofol easily available in the room for the person to self inject, is criminal negligence for a physician under California law.
I don 't see it that way.
In my vu, secret self administration of additional sedatives = acquital.



firefly wrote:
To delay, by about 20 minutes, calling 911, to get proper resusitation equipment for a patient who isn't breathing, is criminal negligence for a physician. To omit telling all of the medical people, both the EMT workers, and the ER doctors, that Jackson had received Propofol, was criminal negligence by a physician because it affected how those medical workers evaluated and tried to resusitate Jackson.
The jury shoud not be invited to SPECULATE, to guess,
qua whether MJ coud be or woud be brought back to life.





firefly wrote:
Conrad Murray did not commit one act of criminal negligence--he commited many. And, were it not for those acts, Jackson would not have died that day. That does make Dr, Murray guilty of involuntary manslaughter under California law. He is substantially responsible for Jackson's death.
Cause of death was MJ, in his desperation; no homicide.





firefly wrote:
Murray was so criminally negligent that they really could have charged him with second degree murder under California law, which does not require intent to kill. But, since this is such a high profile case, they probably decided to go with the lesser charge of manslaughter in order to get an easier conviction.
We 'll see what happens.
I deem it judicial error to have allowed the DA to show pictures
of the children to the jury and to argue invoking their names. It denied defendant a fair trial.
That information is both irrelevant n prejudicial; it does not assist the jury
in deciding whether defendant committed homicide.
It only inflames their emotions.

Was there an objection to that?????






firefly wrote:
If you had watched the trial, I think you would understand the evidence, and this case, much better than you appear to. Jackson died as a direct result of Conrad Murray's actions--and the prosecution presented a case which really did not allow for much doubt on that score, and the defense really had little to work with to raise reasonable doubt--even the defense experts could not justify or excuse Murray's actions. Trying to blame Jackson for his own death really won't get Murray off the hook, if the jurors really follow the law, because even if Jackson self administered a last dose of Propofol (which is very unlikely), Murray left it available for him, and Murray should have been in the room with him. Murray did a lot of lying
Lying to police after MJ was dead is not an act of homicide;
it is an act of nervousness n fear of criminal or civil litigation.



firefly wrote:
in the very long interview he had with the police 2 or 3 days after Jackson's death--and that taped interview was played at trial as part of the evidence the prosecution used to discredit him. Jackson had no reason, at all, to want to kill himself, he'd hired a doctor, Murray, to be sure he'd be given drugs safely, but Murray had lots of reasons to lie when he spoke with the police, he was trying to cover his own tracks and conceal his own criminally negligent behavior--he knew he had caused Jackson's death.
He knew that trouble might be headed down the road in his direction.





David
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 08:41 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Dr Murray could have had sleep studies performed on Jackson, in his own home, to determine the pattern, and possible causes, of his insomnia. He didn't do that.


This is patently false. Dr. Murray could not have had sleep studies performed on Jackson because you can't practice responsible medicine on someone who doesn't want responsible medicine. If Dr. Murray had ordered sleep studies he would have been fired. Michael Jackson wanted drugs.

Michael Jackson had complete access to the best medical care possible. He didn't want it. In fact he fired lots of doctors who probably acted professionally. He hired Dr. Murray simply because Dr. Murray would give him the drugs he wanted. Michael Jackson wanted an irresponsible doctor and he paid for one.

This was an employer/employee relationship. Michael Jackson had all the resources he needed to call the shots and hired just the man he wanted.

I will agree that Dr. Murray was a horrible doctor who acted irresponsibly and shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine any more.

But it seems like you all are trying to say that Michael Jackson doesn't bear any of the responsibility for his self-destructive actions. The fact is that someone with millions of dollars has the resources to kill themselves with powerful drugs if they want. Michael Jackson didn't get responsible medical care because he rejected it.

The fact is that Michael Jackson chose to take these drugs.

Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 09:36 am
@maxdancona,
We're not arguing that Michael Jackson wasn't responsible at all; this discussion is about the DOCTOR. He COULD have said NO. But... he was greedy and he put his greed before his ethics - his conduct was reprehensible as a person and as a physician.

We already know MJ was unbalanced; this isn't about him.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 01:37 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
. . . He hired Dr. Murray simply because Dr. Murray would give him the drugs he wanted. . . .
I think that 's probably true.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 01:46 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
We're not arguing that Michael Jackson wasn't responsible at all; this discussion is about the DOCTOR. He COULD have said NO. But... he was greedy and he put his greed before his ethics - his conduct was reprehensible as a person and as a physician.

We already know MJ was unbalanced; this isn't about him.
I must disagree with u, Mame.

If I were in MJ's desperate situation,
I think that I 'd want an M.D. available to satisfy my requirements.

Morally, everyone has the right to end his life when he chooses
and he has the right to indulge in risky behavior.
Each man is the captain of his own ship.

As an American citizen, I want government to be DEFEATED
in its attempts to control what we ingest; that usurpation of power is DEEPLY unAmerican.

Government shoud be put to shame regarding its intrusion upon
its creator's freedom of ingestion.

MJ assumed the risks of his own choices.
He lived and he died with the consequences. That is America to me.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 02:58 pm

I think its sad that the poor defendant
has to suffer thru this whole weekend without knowing his future.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:02 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:


I think its sad that the poor defendant
has to suffer thru this whole weekend without knowing his future.

BOO HOO.

A great artist is dead, and we want to see if Murray is criminally liable for this death, so how about some perspective here??
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
Dr. Murray may have been criminally liable for the death of a great artist? Who would that be? (If he is being charged for the deaths of two people it might change the case a bit.)
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:08 pm
@hawkeye10,

OmSigDAVID wrote:


I think its sad that the poor defendant
has to suffer thru this whole weekend without knowing his future.

hawkeye10 wrote:
BOO HOO.

A great artist is dead, and we want to see if Murray is criminally liable for this death, so how about some perspective here??
By u, perspective requires delaying a verdict until next week??

I stand by everything that I 've said.
( I will not offer any opinion qua whether he is a "great artist".)




David
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:14 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
By u, perspective requires delaying a verdict until next week??
Both sides decided to swamp the jury with information, this was always going to take time to deliberate, if the jury was going to do their job. Who cares if the defendant needs to stew for a few more days?

I dont think he has much to worry about, the chances of a conviction here are mighty slim, but I admit to having not paid much attention to the case.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:20 pm
The hypocratic oath states FIRST "do no harm". Harm occured to Jackson while under his care. He was negligent and it took him forever to get an ambulance to there, too. He deserves to lose his license, at the very least. What the hell he was doing prescribing that drug (Propofol) IMHO is beyond prudent and appropriate medicine.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:24 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Why? Why should he have any better (or worse) treatment than anyone else in a high profile case such as this where someone wrongfully died. I see no reason to accelerate the pace 'cause the 'good doctor' has to stew for a weekend.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You made an assumption that M Jackson wanted to die. I think no such thing occured. From the gist of many reports, he seemed to be quite interersted in doing his tour (earning big money) and performing again.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:30 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
The hypocratic oath states FIRST "do no harm".
It does not say that anyone shoud be convicted of homicide.


Ragman wrote:
Harm occured to Jackson while under his care.
Woud it have been better if MJ had shot himself or jumped out the window in his torment ?



Ragman wrote:
He was negligent and it took him forever to get an ambulance to there, too. He deserves to lose his license, at the very least.
That is a different isssue, presumably for a different court of his professional peers.




Ragman wrote:
What the hell he was doing prescribing that drug (Propofol) IMHO is beyond prudent and appropriate medicine.
That 's what MJ wanted.
This is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.
MJ was brave enuf to take those drugs.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:32 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
Why? Why should he have any better (or worse) treatment
than anyone else in a high profile case such as this where someone wrongfully died.
Agreed; the same shoud apply to all defendants in that situation.




Ragman wrote:
I see no reason to accelerate the pace 'cause the 'good doctor' has to stew for a weekend.
Mercy





David
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:33 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Non-sequitur:
Quote:
It does not say that anyone shoud be convicted of homicide.


Nowhere did I say that.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:34 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Mercy


Justice
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:36 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

You made an assumption that M Jackson wanted to die.
I did NOT.



Ragman wrote:
I think no such thing occured.
AGREED.



Ragman wrote:
From the gist of many reports, he seemed to be quite interersted in doing his tour (earning big money) and performing again.
He was even MORE acutely interested in going to SLEEP and he gave abundant notice of that fact.

It must have been hellish to be MJ.





David
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2011 03:38 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
That 's what MJ wanted.
This is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.
MJ was brave enuf to take those drugs.

how do you know what MJ wanted?

How do you know what sort of decision MJ was capable of - or even if capable of AFA making a rational decision? He certainly wanted to sleep. Doubtful that he wanted to die.

That medical professional who was in charge of his patient should have made the correct decision. Had he done so and monitored him 100% , then it's likely MJ would not have died that day. MJ did not have to be euthanized (due to having some deadly or hopeless illness) with or without his (the MD) knowledge.
 

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