57
   

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 05:32 am
Quote:
Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?


I'd suggest two reasons. One, he wasn't really the political reformer he's often cracked up to be, a modern effort which attempted to make his message more relevant.

Two, as Nietzsche pointed out, christianity is a religion for slaves. "Sure things are really shitty here on earth, but accept my message and you will find peace on earth and eternal life in heaven. Just submit and be a good member of the herd."
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 06:57 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?


I'd suggest two reasons. One, he wasn't really the political reformer he's often cracked up to be, a modern effort which attempted to make his message more relevant.

Two, as Nietzsche pointed out, christianity is a religion for slaves. "Sure things are really shitty here on earth, but accept my message and you will find peace on earth and eternal life in heaven. Just submit and be a good member of the herd."



Possible.

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 07:29 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Just submit and be a good member of the herd."

You could call Jesus a lot of things. But If you’ve ever read him, he was in no way a conformist.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 09:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
But If you’ve ever read him, he was in no way a conformist.

I've never "read him", only what others have written about him. But suppose we accept that, for the sake of discussion, you are correct. That doesn't mean he urged his followers to be non-conformists...they're consistently referred to a "sheep".
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 09:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

And that is a sufficient reason by itself.

I wanted to provide some additional possibilities that may or may not have been mentioned in the previous 95 pages.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 09:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

The distinction between wage labor and slavery is a nuance of post-feudal industrial culture.

When Jesus tells the rich man to give up all his possessions if he wants to become perfect, that implies that he would no longer command anyone's labor, either his own slaves in order to make money, or anyone else's by spending money on what someone else's slaves produce.

Jesus knew that people wouldn't be able to give up all their possessions and slaves, and that was when he said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

If you wanted to eliminate all reliance on coerced labor, you would have to stop buying anything produced by people whose labor was coerced in any way, including by charging them rent to live, etc.

Just because laborers get paid in money and then hand the money over to their landlord doesn't make them any more free to quit their jobs. Slavery is a state of labor-obligation, whether the obligation is achieved by debts, physical violence, or some combination of the two.

You may say you're rather be evicted from your apartment than beaten into submission, and I would agree with you that the beating is a worse form of labor-discipline, but the fact is that if you know you're going to end up homeless if you don't pay your rent, you're going to keep showing up at your current job even while you look for another employer to take you on. You are simply not free to quit unless you have some way to live that doesn't require you work to pay for your right to sleep, eat, etc.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 11:14 am
@hightor,
Quote:
they're consistently referred to a "sheep".

Yeah, but his sheep. Bad ass black sheep ya know.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 11:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Bad ass black sheep ya know.



That’s not the nursery rhyme I remember.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 11:25 am
@izzythepush,
I was thinking of the TV show. Was that a thing over there?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 12:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
No. Never heard of it.
We have Shaun the sheep.
He’s really really good.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 01:00 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?


I'd suggest two reasons. One, he wasn't really the political reformer he's often cracked up to be, a modern effort which attempted to make his message more relevant.

Two, as Nietzsche pointed out, christianity is a religion for slaves. "Sure things are really shitty here on earth, but accept my message and you will find peace on earth and eternal life in heaven. Just submit and be a good member of the herd."

Two fair points. The guy was not that interested in this world anyway. He was hoping for something different, the "Kingdom of God".
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 01:13 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

hightor wrote:

Quote:
Why do you suppose Jesus didn't condemned slavery?


I'd suggest two reasons. One, he wasn't really the political reformer he's often cracked up to be, a modern effort which attempted to make his message more relevant.

Two, as Nietzsche pointed out, christianity is a religion for slaves. "Sure things are really shitty here on earth, but accept my message and you will find peace on earth and eternal life in heaven. Just submit and be a good member of the herd."

Two fair points. The guy was not that interested in this world anyway. He was hoping for something different, the "Kingdom of God".

". . . thy kingdom come, thy will be done; on Earth as it is in Heaven."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 02:11 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

The distinction between wage labor and slavery is a nuance of post-feudal industrial culture.

When Jesus tells the rich man to give up all his possessions if he wants to become perfect, that implies that he would no longer command anyone's labor, either his own slaves in order to make money, or anyone else's by spending money on what someone else's slaves produce.


Jesus knew that people wouldn't be able to give up all their possessions and slaves, and that was when he said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

If you wanted to eliminate all reliance on coerced labor, you would have to stop buying anything produced by people whose labor was coerced in any way, including by charging them rent to live, etc.

Just because laborers get paid in money and then hand the money over to their landlord doesn't make them any more free to quit their jobs. Slavery is a state of labor-obligation, whether the obligation is achieved by debts, physical violence, or some combination of the two.

You may say you're rather be evicted from your apartment than beaten into submission, and I would agree with you that the beating is a worse form of labor-discipline, but the fact is that if you know you're going to end up homeless if you don't pay your rent, you're going to keep showing up at your current job even while you look for another employer to take you on. You are simply not free to quit unless you have some way to live that doesn't require you work to pay for your right to sleep, eat, etc.


So I take it you agree that the reason Jesus did not condemn slavery is because the god of the Bible said there is nothing wrong with it.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 02:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

The distinction between wage labor and slavery is a nuance of post-feudal industrial culture.

When Jesus tells the rich man to give up all his possessions if he wants to become perfect, that implies that he would no longer command anyone's labor, either his own slaves in order to make money, or anyone else's by spending money on what someone else's slaves produce.


Jesus knew that people wouldn't be able to give up all their possessions and slaves, and that was when he said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

If you wanted to eliminate all reliance on coerced labor, you would have to stop buying anything produced by people whose labor was coerced in any way, including by charging them rent to live, etc.

Just because laborers get paid in money and then hand the money over to their landlord doesn't make them any more free to quit their jobs. Slavery is a state of labor-obligation, whether the obligation is achieved by debts, physical violence, or some combination of the two.

You may say you're rather be evicted from your apartment than beaten into submission, and I would agree with you that the beating is a worse form of labor-discipline, but the fact is that if you know you're going to end up homeless if you don't pay your rent, you're going to keep showing up at your current job even while you look for another employer to take you on. You are simply not free to quit unless you have some way to live that doesn't require you work to pay for your right to sleep, eat, etc.


So I take it you agree that the reason Jesus did not condemn slavery is because the god of the Bible said there is nothing wrong with it.

Did you read the post you quoted before responding?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 02:44 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

The distinction between wage labor and slavery is a nuance of post-feudal industrial culture.

When Jesus tells the rich man to give up all his possessions if he wants to become perfect, that implies that he would no longer command anyone's labor, either his own slaves in order to make money, or anyone else's by spending money on what someone else's slaves produce.


Jesus knew that people wouldn't be able to give up all their possessions and slaves, and that was when he said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

If you wanted to eliminate all reliance on coerced labor, you would have to stop buying anything produced by people whose labor was coerced in any way, including by charging them rent to live, etc.

Just because laborers get paid in money and then hand the money over to their landlord doesn't make them any more free to quit their jobs. Slavery is a state of labor-obligation, whether the obligation is achieved by debts, physical violence, or some combination of the two.

You may say you're rather be evicted from your apartment than beaten into submission, and I would agree with you that the beating is a worse form of labor-discipline, but the fact is that if you know you're going to end up homeless if you don't pay your rent, you're going to keep showing up at your current job even while you look for another employer to take you on. You are simply not free to quit unless you have some way to live that doesn't require you work to pay for your right to sleep, eat, etc.


So I take it you agree that the reason Jesus did not condemn slavery is because the god of the Bible said there is nothing wrong with it.

Did you read the post you quoted before responding?


Yeah. Is there gonna be a test?

Either way, I'll assume by "Did you read the post you quoted before responding?" to mean that you do agree.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2020 03:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

The distinction between wage labor and slavery is a nuance of post-feudal industrial culture.

When Jesus tells the rich man to give up all his possessions if he wants to become perfect, that implies that he would no longer command anyone's labor, either his own slaves in order to make money, or anyone else's by spending money on what someone else's slaves produce.


Jesus knew that people wouldn't be able to give up all their possessions and slaves, and that was when he said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

If you wanted to eliminate all reliance on coerced labor, you would have to stop buying anything produced by people whose labor was coerced in any way, including by charging them rent to live, etc.

Just because laborers get paid in money and then hand the money over to their landlord doesn't make them any more free to quit their jobs. Slavery is a state of labor-obligation, whether the obligation is achieved by debts, physical violence, or some combination of the two.

You may say you're rather be evicted from your apartment than beaten into submission, and I would agree with you that the beating is a worse form of labor-discipline, but the fact is that if you know you're going to end up homeless if you don't pay your rent, you're going to keep showing up at your current job even while you look for another employer to take you on. You are simply not free to quit unless you have some way to live that doesn't require you work to pay for your right to sleep, eat, etc.


So I take it you agree that the reason Jesus did not condemn slavery is because the god of the Bible said there is nothing wrong with it.

Did you read the post you quoted before responding?


Yeah. Is there gonna be a test?

Either way, I'll assume by "Did you read the post you quoted before responding?" to mean that you do agree.

It means I don't understand why you are asking what you asked if you read what I wrote.

Did it complexify the issue too much for you to think about what slavery means in the context of modern wage-labor?

You're projecting assumptions about slavery from a modern context onto labor relations from millennia ago.

Why aren't you asking why Jesus didn't condemn wage-labor?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2020 05:44 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My guess...as has been offered earlier is that Jesus never condemned slavery because the god of the Bible specifically said that slavery was fine with him. The god of the Bible says that you can own and trade in slaves...so why would Jesus condemn it?

The distinction between wage labor and slavery is a nuance of post-feudal industrial culture.


When Jesus tells the rich man to give up all his possessions if he wants to become perfect, that implies that he would no longer command anyone's labor, either his own slaves in order to make money, or anyone else's by spending money on what someone else's slaves produce.


Jesus knew that people wouldn't be able to give up all their possessions and slaves, and that was when he said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

If you wanted to eliminate all reliance on coerced labor, you would have to stop buying anything produced by people whose labor was coerced in any way, including by charging them rent to live, etc.

Just because laborers get paid in money and then hand the money over to their landlord doesn't make them any more free to quit their jobs. Slavery is a state of labor-obligation, whether the obligation is achieved by debts, physical violence, or some combination of the two.

You may say you're rather be evicted from your apartment than beaten into submission, and I would agree with you that the beating is a worse form of labor-discipline, but the fact is that if you know you're going to end up homeless if you don't pay your rent, you're going to keep showing up at your current job even while you look for another employer to take you on. You are simply not free to quit unless you have some way to live that doesn't require you work to pay for your right to sleep, eat, etc.


So I take it you agree that the reason Jesus did not condemn slavery is because the god of the Bible said there is nothing wrong with it.

Did you read the post you quoted before responding?


Yeah. Is there gonna be a test?

Either way, I'll assume by "Did you read the post you quoted before responding?" to mean that you do agree.

It means I don't understand why you are asking what you asked if you read what I wrote.

Did it complexify the issue too much for you to think about what slavery means in the context of modern wage-labor?

You're projecting assumptions about slavery from a modern context onto labor relations from millennia ago.

Why aren't you asking why Jesus didn't condemn wage-labor?


So you agree. I get it. You don't have to repeat yourself about agreeing.
nacredambition
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2020 05:51 am
What I do enjoy about all these threads about the boys and their offsider is that idiots chat about it as if it could be real.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2020 08:27 am
@nacredambition,
Just like you
nacredambition
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2020 08:59 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Just like you


Nah, I'm just chatting about it as if it couldn't be real.

If god had paid me a visit on more than one occasion like your good self then I might have a different perspective.
 

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