Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

@spendius,

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I just don't recall any mention of slavery in Judea. The return to the Promised Land was a return from slavery. These were tribes.

Just gorgeous!!!

Why didn't Jesus condemn slavery in Rome? (Do you recall any mention of slavery there?)

Why didn't Jesus condemn the institution of slavery...which was widespread throughout the known world (do you recall any mention of slavery in the known world?)...since he could have?

Any chance it could have something to do with the fact that the god he worshiped told everyone that there was nothing wrong with slavery...that the people who worshiped him could own other human beings and treat them as chattels?

And why didn't Jesus condemn abortion?

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@aspvenom,

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Another assumption by the OP question is that slaves were treated like they were in America.

Really?

Well I wrote the OP...and I do not remember making that assumption. In fact, I know very well that I did not. So could you fill me in on where the assumption pops up in the words that I wrote?

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I don't know my Judean history, so I don't know if slaves were treated as people, and not abused like here in America, which decreases the severity of moral wrongness, and as Lustig mentioned, to even make it not an issue at that time.

The god told his followers that they were allowed to buy, sell, and own slaves...both male and female. They could hold them in slavery forever (or until death)...and pass them on to their heirs. They could be bought, sold, separated from family, beaten...by why go on.

All the respect in the world, Aspvenom, you do not need to brush up on your Judean history, but you might give some attention to the logic of your arguments on this issue.

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@Frank Apisa,

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I think your train just went off the tracks here, RL.

At no point did I say anything about Jesus worshiping slavery. He worshiped a god...who did not condemn slavery.

You are correct I misread, it was a long day yesterday.

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@Frank Apisa,

I can afford one more post today
Would you believe me if societies that followed patrilineage idea, found the marriage of living to the dead was acceptable?
Ghost marriage, which I was introduced in world history, makes you think what were people thinking at that time.
Why did women in China found the idea of suicide acceptable, and then after this they were made to legends after suicide? Was it to show love?
Illogical to you and me but back in the day, that was what was accepted.

Now keeping that in mind, what kind of answer are you looking for? That Jesus explicitly said something along the lines of, Nay to you I say, all men and women of very color, age, and race are equal. Slavery is a sin, do not own slaves my brethren and sisters. Or are you looking for an indirect message.

For example the main theme of Jesus is the golden rule, and that one be must be morally like him to reach heaven. Now don't you agree the the best way to change moral behavior is to transform moral views by living what you preach. Did Jesus own slaves? Did Jesus have illicit relations with others? Did Jesus cheat others?

Conjecture 1
Wouldn't you agree that he lived what he preached, but can you teach without preaching? Same with you and me. How do you teach children good morals, you do so mostly by example, would u agree? It is not mostly through long speeches and messages. If you father told you "son don't cheat, don't smoke, and respect your mother" yet if your father broke those laws himself, wouldn't you be prone think that it was ok do that. So is it better to lead by example or speech, both?
was speech on certain subjects a viable option during certain political climate?

Conjecture 2
What if Jesus was politically neutral. By directly bringing out controversial ideas, it would have most likely encourage others leading to revolutionary fronts as Jesus was quite a popular man, which will just give Rome a political reason to hunt down and kill Christians.
---

What is your conclusion?
Are you questioning if morality rise from religion or values?
A legit question.
It seems like the idea behind the question is if Jesus was the epitome of morality then why didn't he see that slavery was wrong, immoral, and why didn't he condemn it?

Last thing, where did Paul condone slavery? show me the book in the bible that says so, because I don't recall Paul condoning slavery in my years as a christian.

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@aspvenom,

Aspvenom…good points all. I appreciate them, but they do not actually go to the essence of the OP.

I am asking why you suppose Jesus did not condemn slavery…and you acknowledge that he did not in any direct way that we can determine. (He may have, but the writers of the gospels and epistles may have decided they did not want to mention that he had.)

You still have not commented on MY supposition that he did not condemn slavery because the god that he worshiped instructed that there was nothing whatever wrong with slavery…it was an allowed activity. I really would like to hear from you about that.

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff

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Last thing, where did Paul condone slavery? show me the book in the bible that says so, because I don't recall Paul condoning slavery in my years as a christian.

Here are a few quotes from some of Paul's epistles. I doubt most Christians ever heard them read in church:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers." 1 Timothy 6:1ff

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord." Colossians 3:22

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..." Colossians 4:1

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior." Titus 2:9

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...." 1 Corinthians 7:17ff

In the Epistle, Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he (Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.

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@Frank Apisa,

Most of what is known about Jesus is 3rd 4th 5th (or even greater) hand information. We've got very little to go on, you might just as well ask why Jesus never went to the lavatory.

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@Frank Apisa,

Fairly simple... Being a slave in Jesus' time was basically just a job description in most cases i.e. it was basically just the station in life where you'd find your more dufeless/shiftless kinds of people. Certainly anybody in our age who'd ever cast a vote for Bork Obunga would have been a slave in Jesus' time.

The kind of evil slavery which we read about in Uncle Tom's Cabin or in books on the history of Central and South America is a muslim invention and came about centuries after Jesus' time.

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@izzythepush,

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Most of what is known about Jesus is 3rd 4th 5th (or even greater) hand information. We've got very little to go on, you might just as well ask why Jesus never went to the lavatory.

Well we can ask: Why do you suppose none of the writers who told us about what Jesus DID TEACH...ever mentioned that Jesus taught there was anything less than moral about slavery?

The fact remains that we have all sorts of indications about what Jesus thought about things. We cannot be sure if the indications are correct...or merely fabrications. But the fact is that we have absolutely no indication that Jesus ever saw anything wrong with slavery.

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@gungasnake,

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Fairly simple... Being a slave in Jesus' time was basically just a job description in most cases i.e. it was basically just the station in life where you'd find your more dufeless/shiftless kinds of people.

That is absolute blather, Gunga...and by now, you know it.

Slaves could be bought and sold...treated as chattels...passed on to heirs as an inheritance...and families broken up. It was not a job description.

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@Frank Apisa,

I would imagine that a newly established religion that had been persecuted pretty much since the outset, had enough to worry about without antagonising those in power more than necessary.

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Jesus exhorted everyone who did not already HAVE a sword,
to buy one. Luke 22:36

That is inconsistent with slavery.
Slaves r not free to buy weapons.
FREE men have the liberty to buy weapons.

David

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@Frank Apisa,

I'm trying to get past the essence in a sense. Say you got the answer to the question, whether it is a a "yes" or a "no" what conclusion will you make for each scenario?

The main theme for all you quotes, is whether it be masters or slaves you must live your life for God.

Paul's appeal regarding Onesimus is actually not message of condoning slavery. I think it's all about saving his skin, literally. What was the punishment for runaway slaves then?

Paul's letter's purpose, I think, is to move Philemon toward a new perception of his slave, and see him as a "christian brother."
I'm pretty sure if he send a letter to Philemon saying that slavery is bad, and that you should free all your slaves, Philemon would think Paul's has gone bonkers (since slavery was a norm those days), and will possibly continue his "hunt" to find the slave. Not a win-win scenario.

The new testament is vague on this whole issue of slavery. It doesn't condone it nor condemn it. It just says treat others with respect, even if they were branded as slaves by social hierarchy, and vice versa, as it applies to masters.
It is also possible to bring into discussion about Moses, hebrew slaves, etc. if you agree with the Christian idea that Jesus = Father = God.

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@izzythepush,

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I would imagine that a newly established religion that had been persecuted pretty much since the outset, had enough to worry about without antagonising those in power more than necessary.

I guess.

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@aspvenom,

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I'm trying to get past the essence in a sense. Say you got the answer to the question, whether it is a a "yes" or a "no" what conclusion will you make for each scenario?

How does one answer “Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?” with a “yes” or “no?”

I am not asking for a yes or a no…I am asking for suppositions. I still have not had a response to MY SUPPOSITION that Jesus did not do so because he thought there was NOTHING WRONG WITH SLAVERY. The god he worshiped said so.

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The main theme for all you quotes, is whether it be masters or slaves you must live your life for God.

Not interested in the “main theme”…I am interested in what is being said in the passages. And the passages definitely show that Paul was satisfied with the institution of slavery.

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Paul's appeal regarding Onesimus is actually not message of condoning slavery. I think it's all about saving his skin, literally. What was the punishment for runaway slaves then?

Read Philemon again. We can discuss it further after you do. It is a VERY short epistle. To suggest that it is anything but an example of Paul condoning slavery is an extremely far stretch.

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Paul's letter's purpose, I think, is to move Philemon toward a new perception of his slave, and see him as a "christian brother."

Fine…and maybe you are correct. But the fact remains that it shows Paul as being completely content with the institution of slavery. Not a single sentence of condemnation of it.

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I'm pretty sure if he send a letter to Philemon saying that slavery is bad, and that you should free all your slaves, Philemon would think Paul's has gone bonkers (since slavery was a norm those days), and will possibly continue his "hunt" to find the slave. Not a win-win scenario.

That could be. But are you arguing that Paul is not condoning slavery…or are you arguing there is a good reason for Paul to condone slavery? You said originally that you could not find anything indicating that Paul condoned slavery. I say he did...and I submitted several passages showing that he did. Do you have any...even one...that shows he condemned it?

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The new testament is vague on this whole issue of slavery.

C'mon, Aspvenom, the New Testament is anything but vague on the issue of slavery. The New Testament comes down on the side you do not want it to be on…but it is not vague at all.

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It doesn't condone it nor condemn it.

In all of my Bibles…I have about a dozen New Testament Bibles here in the room in which I am writing…they most assuredly condone it. I think you are unwilling to accept that they do.

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It just says treat others with respect, even if they were branded as slaves by social hierarchy, and vice versa, as it applies to masters.

It says a lot more than that, Aspvenom…a lot more!

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It is also possible to bring into discussion about Moses, hebrew slaves, etc. if you agree with the Christian idea that Jesus = Father = God.

You certainly are free to do that, but be aware that I can document that Yahweh, god the father, absolutely condones slavery in no uncertain terms…and Jesus, god the son, does not mention one word in condemnation of the institution. As for Moses…I’ll let the Bible speak for him.

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@Frank Apisa,

May i chime in?

Assuming that I may, many of the early Christians were slaves, and the early church fathers were for the abolition of slavery. Why? because of the equality in Christ's law. Jesus didn't make any stand on the issue, as far as I know, but his message on how to treat others were clear. So any guess on if Jesus condemning or not condemning is as good of a guess as in roulette.

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@Helios,

Which early church fathers were for the abolition of slavery?

(This should be interesting.)

Be careful, Frank has a lot of books and so do the rest of us.

If there were any for the abolition of slavery (and there weren't) they certainly didn't succeed, did they?

Joe(Go on..... .)Nation

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Quote:

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

He might well have condemned it 7 times,
without it having gotten into writing. Who knows ?

David

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@Helios,

Helios wrote:

May i chime in?

Well, OK. Y not ?

Helios wrote:

Assuming that I may, many of the early Christians were slaves, and the early church fathers were for the abolition of slavery. Why? because of the equality in Christ's law. Jesus didn't make any stand on the issue, as far as I know, but his message on how to treat others were clear. So any guess on if Jesus condemning or not condemning is as good of a guess as in roulette.

WHAT did Jesus say about equality?

It seems to me that not even "identical" twins r equal.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

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Quote:

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Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

He might well have condemned it 7 times,
without it having gotten into writing. Who knows ?

That is why I wrote up above:

Well we can ask: Why do you suppose none of the writers who told us about what Jesus DID TEACH...ever mentioned that Jesus taught there was anything less than moral about slavery?

The fact remains that we have all sorts of indications about what Jesus thought about things. We cannot be sure if the indications are correct...or merely fabrications. But the fact is that we have absolutely no indication that Jesus ever saw anything wrong with slavery.

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@Helios,

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May i chime in?

Please do.

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Assuming that I may, many of the early Christians were slaves, and the early church fathers were for the abolition of slavery.Why? because of the equality in Christ's law. Jesus didn't make any stand on the issue, as far as I know, but his message on how to treat others were clear. So any guess on if Jesus condemning or not condemning is as good of a guess as in roulette.

Just so I understand where you stand: If you knew you would be treated "well" by a slave-owner, would you be comfortable as a slave? Are you saying that if people who are slaves are treated the way you think Jesus wanted to us to treat each other...slavery would be okay?

Maybe slavery is okay...maybe there is nothing wrong with it. I am interested in your opinion on the matter. (I would love to have had Jesus express an opinion, because I would have been even more interested in his opinion.)

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Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

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