57
   

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 06:21 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Uhhhh, he didn't blindly guess.

Lee Strobel is an investigative reporter. He interviewed a number of people, from medical experts (who told him that Jesus was indeed crucified, listing that regardless of their personal belief in Jesus, his death was medically consistent), to psychologists (who told him that there's no such thing as mass hallucination), and so on. The more people he asked, the more the report showed something he didn't like.

https://www.divinerevelations.info/pdf/the_case_for_christ.pdf

Some were theists, some were atheists who nonetheless conceded that certain points weren't so. In context, he was trying to deconvert his wife, who he felt was becoming distant from him, so he went on a quest to interview people and disprove Christianity. He lines all these points up together, though, and was forced into the opposite conclusion. Oh yeah, and while all this was going on, he was investigating a man accused of murder. The point of the latter is that like Jesus, the man accused was actually guiltless. This is largely why I say that he converted backwards. The idea of Christianity was the first thing he managed to prove, then later he tackled figuring out if there was a Creator or not.


C'mon, Bulma.

Even you cannot suggest there are people alive today who can say for certain that Jesus actually existed...let alone how he died.

You are going from ABSURD...to EVEN MORE ABSURD.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 06:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Ive always found it difficult to understand the bases of "rules of evidence" used by these cult members. Its always good for a laugh though.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 07:27 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Ive always found it difficult to understand the bases of "rules of evidence" used by these cult members. Its always good for a laugh though.


It is amazing what Bulma is using as evidence in that last post!

Oh, well...the fear is great in that group.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 01:10 pm
@farmerman,
They're simple. I don't dismiss evidence, unless there is some reason to do so. So, if you don't have a reason, I suppose the evidence still stands, huh?

Also, I'm in a church not a cult. But the cult of secularism is strong here.

Now let's talk about cognitive dissonance.

https://thereforenow.com/2015/03/cognitive-dissonance-atheism/

And how you are genetically programmed by the crappy food you eat and the trash you watch on TV to be incapable of understanding anything religious.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 01:29 pm
@farmerman,
It's Oralloy's logic, anything that supports his preconditioning is spoke about ad nauseum while anything that undermines it is ignored or denounced as lies.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 01:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I can indeed suggest this thing you call absurd.

All serious scholars agree that there was a historical Jesus.

Quote:
But is this idea taken seriously by any professors of ancient history, Biblical studies, or New Testament studies? To say the least, no. In fact, not a single academic scholar today with a Ph.D. in a relevant field of study claims that Jesus did not exist.


Every historian, aside from three cranks who have no job and no credentials, accepts the reality that there was a Jesus and that he died on the cross. What about those who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus? They believe Jesus died on the cross. End of story, no resurrection. Or they believe there was a historical man named Jesus, but he was just a crazy prophet not the son of God. Without exception, all of them believe that Jesus existed, from an abundance of secondhand or thirdhand sources, including those of Christianity's enemies. So yes, believing Jesus is not the son of God, that he didn't resurrect from the grave, these are valid positions. Why, then, do you take the invalid one that he never existed or that he didn't die on the cross? Far from absurd, that's even more settled than climate change (supposedly) is.

If we believe that consensus is something to be embraced (supposedly, that 90 something % of scientists agree with global warming is a good thing, even though science by definition is about rejecting consensus and testing results), then this should give you pause.

Nothing absurd there. I notice you say that he lived and that he died the way ppl said you call "even more absurd" but won't even speak of raising from the dead. A bridge too far?

The Romans in fact did crucify people. This is not "even more absurd."
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 02:49 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I can indeed suggest this thing you call absurd.

All serious scholars agree that there was a historical Jesus.

Quote:
But is this idea taken seriously by any professors of ancient history, Biblical studies, or New Testament studies? To say the least, no. In fact, not a single academic scholar today with a Ph.D. in a relevant field of study claims that Jesus did not exist.


Yeah, none claim that Jesus did not exist. But that is not what I wrote.

Show me one scholar who says, "I KNOW that Jesus existed."

Not the same thing.

Quote:
Every historian, aside from three cranks who have no job and no credentials, accepts the reality that there was a Jesus and that he died on the cross. What about those who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus? They believe Jesus died on the cross. End of story, no resurrection. Or they believe there was a historical man named Jesus, but he was just a crazy prophet not the son of God. Without exception, all of them believe that Jesus existed, from an abundance of secondhand or thirdhand sources, including those of Christianity's enemies. So yes, believing Jesus is not the son of God, that he didn't resurrect from the grave, these are valid positions. Why, then, do you take the invalid one that he never existed or that he didn't die on the cross?


Wake up, Bulma. Where did I ever take the position that Jesus never existed and didn't die on the cross?

Do you make this **** up yourself...or do you have help from someone else in the asylum?



Quote:
Far from absurd, that's even more settled than climate change (supposedly) is.


Is it?

Quote:
If we believe that consensus is something to be embraced (supposedly, that 90 something % of scientists agree with global warming is a good thing, even though science by definition is about rejecting consensus and testing results), then this should give you pause.


You have fallen off the cliff. Get back on topic...and stick with what I actually write...rather than inventing stuff.

Quote:
Nothing absurd there. I notice you say that he lived and that he died the way ppl said you call "even more absurd" but won't even speak of raising from the dead. A bridge too far?


Everything you are saying right now is itself ubsurd...which is the reason you do not quote my comment...and then comment on the comment. Instead, you make **** up (absurdly paraphrase what you want to hear rather than what I say)...and then argue against your absurd nonsense.

You are not getting away with that nonsense here.

Quote:
The Romans in fact did crucify people. This is not "even more absurd."


What????
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 02:51 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Lemme help you out here, Bulma.

Here is what I actually wrote. Tell me exactly what you see to be wrong or inaccurate.

C'mon, Bulma.

Even you cannot suggest there are people alive today who can say for certain that Jesus actually existed...let alone how he died.

You are going from ABSURD...to EVEN MORE ABSURD.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 04:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Bulma is quoting horseshit, most reputable historians remain agnostic over whether Jesus existed or not.

Only the religious ones insist existed.

Bulma just seems to read nothing but extreme fundamentalist bollocks.

I get the impression they've never read a newspaper.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 06:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Is it a matter of evidence? I mean is the reason that no one can KNOW that Jesus lived just that there isn’t enough physical evidence?

Basically, unless someone was living at the same time as a historical figure, how can ANYONE say that they KNOW that ANYONE lived?
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 08:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I don't go around memorizing names of scholars.

Neither do you. This is a baited question. I need to find a scholar who says that, because... no I don't. The fact of the matter is, nobody serious says that he didn't exist. Not the Jews (the Babylonian Talmud goes so far as to say that he is burning in feces), and not the Romans (Tacticus was Roman senator who wrote about Jesus's execution under Pontius Pilate, and showed little to no favor toward Christianity), and not the nearby tribes near Israel (Mara bar Sarapion was a Syrian philosopher and a citizen loyal to Rome, he spoke of the unjust treatment of "three wise men": the murder of Socrates, the burning of Pythagoras, and the execution of the King of the Jews).

So, I've got not one but three people who talk about Jesus. Modern scholars? I don't keep up with them. But all of these people wrote historical records of a guy named Jesus, even though they hated his guts or were indifferent. These are some of the sources that historians use, not the word of Christians but hostile sources. All of his enemies nonetheless admit he existed.

Nevermind that if I did tell you a modern scholar, you'd be all like "No, that one's no good." Feel free to reject sources, but do it on your own time. I ain't got the patience for that bullshit anymore.

Also, show me one that doesn't. Oh wait, I've got one from the article.

Quote:
There is a group of about 3 main semi-scholarly people who argue for this “Christ-myth theory” that Jesus never existed. Richard Carrier is the most popular one, and quite frankly, is the only one who is even somewhat listened to by academics. He was mentioned multiple times in the article mentioned above, Carrier has a Ph.D. in Ancient Studies from Columbia University with a specialty in Roman history, though he is currently unemployed having never held an academic position at any university. His claim is that the existence of Jesus is sufficiently improbable and his historicity cannot be considered certain, and therefore we are not justified in claiming he existed.


Read this again. He is a loser basement dweller who cannot be expected to be taken seriously.

Quote:
Basically, unless someone was living at the same time as a historical figure, how can ANYONE say that they KNOW that ANYONE lived?


I took history class, unlike the rest of you jerks. We learned about historiography. That is, the study of how we know our history is real (an object lesson in this class was Herodotus's History of the Peloponnesian War, which was fairly accurate until Herodotus figured out they were gonna lose, then he just quit in the middle of a paragraph). Historians check this stuff and cross-check it.

One of the ways you figure out if a person existed or not is that there is a person-shaped gap in history. For example, if I were to be hit by a Chainfire spell (dude, read Terry Goodkind) and all record of me was erased from memory, you could still find my name in work records and dental information, tax forms, stuff like that. Now, suppose someone really tried hard to erase me but destroying my name from everywhere. There is still a gap. If someone is immune, and knows I existed, and knows where I worked, they can prove my existence by an unaccounted for gap in the way the paychecks line up. Money is lost, but there is no recipient. Or how their wife had a child. Stuff like that.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Oct, 2021 11:36 pm
@snood,
Historical records, no one doubted if Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great existed.

We don't know who watered their horses though.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 03:21 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Bulma is quoting horseshit, most reputable historians remain agnostic over whether Jesus existed or not.

Only the religious ones insist existed.

Bulma just seems to read nothing but extreme fundamentalist bollocks.

I get the impression they've never read a newspaper.


Right you are, Izzy. Right on the button.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 03:23 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Is it a matter of evidence? I mean is the reason that no one can KNOW that Jesus lived just that there isn’t enough physical evidence?

Basically, unless someone was living at the same time as a historical figure, how can ANYONE say that they KNOW that ANYONE lived?


So very evident, Snood. Ya gotta wonder why Bulma is not able to understand that. But Bulma will not acknowledge the lack of logic in their argument.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 03:32 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I don't go around memorizing names of scholars.

Neither do you. This is a baited question. I need to find a scholar who says that, because... no I don't. The fact of the matter is, nobody serious says that he didn't exist. Not the Jews (the Babylonian Talmud goes so far as to say that he is burning in feces), and not the Romans (Tacticus was Roman senator who wrote about Jesus's execution under Pontius Pilate, and showed little to no favor toward Christianity), and not the nearby tribes near Israel (Mara bar Sarapion was a Syrian philosopher and a citizen loyal to Rome, he spoke of the unjust treatment of "three wise men": the murder of Socrates, the burning of Pythagoras, and the execution of the King of the Jews).

So, I've got not one but three people who talk about Jesus. Modern scholars? I don't keep up with them. But all of these people wrote historical records of a guy named Jesus, even though they hated his guts or were indifferent. These are some of the sources that historians use, not the word of Christians but hostile sources. All of his enemies nonetheless admit he existed.

Nevermind that if I did tell you a modern scholar, you'd be all like "No, that one's no good." Feel free to reject sources, but do it on your own time. I ain't got the patience for that bullshit anymore.

Also, show me one that doesn't. Oh wait, I've got one from the article.

Quote:
There is a group of about 3 main semi-scholarly people who argue for this “Christ-myth theory” that Jesus never existed. Richard Carrier is the most popular one, and quite frankly, is the only one who is even somewhat listened to by academics. He was mentioned multiple times in the article mentioned above, Carrier has a Ph.D. in Ancient Studies from Columbia University with a specialty in Roman history, though he is currently unemployed having never held an academic position at any university. His claim is that the existence of Jesus is sufficiently improbable and his historicity cannot be considered certain, and therefore we are not justified in claiming he existed.


Read this again. He is a loser basement dweller who cannot be expected to be taken seriously.

Quote:
Basically, unless someone was living at the same time as a historical figure, how can ANYONE say that they KNOW that ANYONE lived?


I took history class, unlike the rest of you jerks. We learned about historiography. That is, the study of how we know our history is real (an object lesson in this class was Herodotus's History of the Peloponnesian War, which was fairly accurate until Herodotus figured out they were gonna lose, then he just quit in the middle of a paragraph). Historians check this stuff and cross-check it.

One of the ways you figure out if a person existed or not is that there is a person-shaped gap in history. For example, if I were to be hit by a Chainfire spell (dude, read Terry Goodkind) and all record of me was erased from memory, you could still find my name in work records and dental information, tax forms, stuff like that. Now, suppose someone really tried hard to erase me but destroying my name from everywhere. There is still a gap. If someone is immune, and knows I existed, and knows where I worked, they can prove my existence by an unaccounted for gap in the way the paychecks line up. Money is lost, but there is no recipient. Or how their wife had a child. Stuff like that.


Yes...and apples grow on trees. But the fact that apples grow on trees has nothing to do with what I said...and neither does anything you wrote here.

I SAID: Even you cannot suggest there are people alive today who can say for certain that Jesus actually existed...let alone how he died.

Now if you are arguing that someone could simply say (or write): "Jesus actually existed"...I guess technically you would be correct.

But there is no one alive right now who actually KNOWS that Jesus actually existed. My guess would be that he did...that a single individual named Jesus who preached and became the Jesus of the New Testament...DID actually exist.

But all it would be is a guess, because there is no way I can possibly KNOW that for certain...AND THERE IS NO WAY ANY HUMAN ALIVE RIGHT NOW COULD POSSIBLY KNOW.

Get that through your thick skull.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 06:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
No, I never said that.

There are plenty of people who can suggest for certain that Jesus was a historical figure. I can suggest for relative certain but I'm a history major not a a historian. So I don't bother knowing their names. This is different from turning a historical consensus into "Well nobody really says that." Yes, actually they DO. And so do their sources. I mentioned some of their sources.

Had you bothered to actually read that link I sent earlier, you would have found all the names you need of historians (even atheistic ones) that still insist there was a Jesus, even if they deny their divinity.
https://reasonsforjesus.com/jesus-exist-scholars-agree-certainly-existed/
Here you go. Second name on the list. Bart Ehrman, agnostic atheist. On the top of Jesus:
https://reasonsforjesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/bart-ehrman.jpg
He also says...
Quote:
This is not an issue for scholars. There is no scholar in any college or university who teaches classics, ancient history, new testament, early christianity, who doubts that Jesus existed. He is abundantly attested in early sources. Early and independent sources indicate that Jesus certainly existed. Paul is an eyewitness to both Jesus’ disciple Peter and the brother of Jesus. Like, I’m sorry. Atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism because it makes you look foolish to the outside world.

And...
Quote:
There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds — thousands? — of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world.
And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology. Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.


Look, I could have picked any name on this page.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 06:05 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

No, I never said that.


You never said what?

Do you ever even make an attempt to be coherent in anything you write?
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 08:30 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:

Is it a matter of evidence? I mean is the reason that no one can KNOW that Jesus lived just that there isn’t enough physical evidence?

Basically, unless someone was living at the same time as a historical figure, how can ANYONE say that they KNOW that ANYONE lived?


So very evident, Snood. Ya gotta wonder why Bulma is not able to understand that. But Bulma will not acknowledge the lack of logic in their argument.

So, just so I’m clear on this…
You’re saying that we can’t know that anyone from history really lived, because we weren’t there to witness them alive?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 09:01 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:

Is it a matter of evidence? I mean is the reason that no one can KNOW that Jesus lived just that there isn’t enough physical evidence?

Basically, unless someone was living at the same time as a historical figure, how can ANYONE say that they KNOW that ANYONE lived?


So very evident, Snood. Ya gotta wonder why Bulma is not able to understand that. But Bulma will not acknowledge the lack of logic in their argument.

So, just so I’m clear on this…
You’re saying that we can’t know that anyone from history really lived, because we weren’t there to witness them alive?



If that last part was a question of me...

...NO I am not saying that we cannot know that anyone from history really lived because we were not there to witness them alive.

There is plenty of compelling evidence for the existence of MANY historical individuals...LOTS AND LOTS OF EVIDENCE.

I certainly am not intending a pedantic definition of the word "know" although I once heard a lecture from Richard Feynman suggesting that a more exacting definition SHOULD be used in rigorous discussions when using "know."

I can comfortably say, "I KNOW that George Washington really lived." Same with Augustus Caesar, Henry VIII, Napoleon Bonaparte, or Harriet Tubman. But with Jesus...or Lazarus...or Mary Magdalene...or John the Baptist...or so many others who are part of the "Jesus story"...the evidence is both scant and questionable.

For the most part, the winners write the history. The Christians became the winners...and wrote "the history" applicable to this issue.

I don't trust it any more than I trust the history of the House of York written by someone of the House of Lancaster.

It may be right on the mark...correct in every significant detail. It may also be more closely related to the story of Goldilocks.

But no matter what...there is no one alive today who can say that Jesus actually was a single person who actually lived...or an amalgam of people whose combined philosophy became the original Christian base.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2021 09:47 am
@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

...NO I am not saying that we cannot know that anyone from history really lived because we were not there to witness them alive.


Well, heck. I never actually saw Joe Biden. I'm pretty sure he lives.
0 Replies
 
 

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