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Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2021 08:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Bandwagoning is not independent thought. It's an excuse for thought.

Sorry, you suck.

And my post directly above this one still applies.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2021 08:42 am
@bulmabriefs144,
I don't downvote posts, and I couldn't "downvote them out of sight" even if I wished to..

Your description of the human condition doesn't describe "slavery".

You seem to have a lot of expectations which the material world doesn't fulfill and have chosen to enslave yourself to the "ultimate master".

By the way, you might enjoy the book Religion and and the Rise of Capitalism:

Quote:
In one of the truly great classics of twentieth-century political economy, R. H. Tawney addresses the question of how religion has affected social and economic practices. He does this by a relentless tracking of the influence of religious thought on capitalist economy and ideology since the Middle Ages. In so doing he sheds light on why Christianity continues to exert a unique role in the marketplace. In so doing, the book offers an incisive analysis of the historical background of present morals and mores in Western culture.Religion and the Rise of Capitalism is even more pertinent now than when it first was published; for today it is clearer that the dividing line between spheres of religion and secular business is shifting, that economic interests and ethical considerations are no longer safely locked in separate compartments. By examining that period which saw the transition from medieval to modern theories of social organization, Tawney clarifies the most pressing problems of the end of the century. In tough, muscular, richly varied prose, he tells an absorbing and meaningful story. And in his new introduction, which may well be a classic in its own right, Adam Seligman details Tawney's entire background, the current status of social science thought on these large issues, and a comparative analysis of Tawney with Max Weber that will at once delight and inform readers of all kinds.


0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2021 09:26 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:


Which is probably why you usually downvote them out of sight. Totally because you are considering them trite/sanctimonious and not at all because you can't handle then philosophically.

You are a slave because from day one, you are expected to work for a government that basically treats you as a farm animal.
1. From age 6 onward, you are not allowed to just run around adventuring, you are seen out, you are considered a truant. Your parents have fairly shaky ground for homeschooling, and child protective services can be called to basically kidnap you if your parents go too far out of bounds. Not even abuse, we watched No Reservations, and they were literally gonna take the kid away for spending time at the restaurant doing work. When your parents don't really hold you anymore, you are a slave.
2. You are a slave because the money you have is not backed by anything. You work but your money has no intrinsic value. Gold ultimately is a product of the physical world and of not much concern to those with religion or spirituality, but it can be said to have intrinsic worth. Remember this term for later, that means gold (and silver) are valued on their own, because in this case, that they are exceedingly rare. This is the money America valued most as a source of financial independence from the UK, but we have been sold out bit by bit over the years. Early America had no income tax, until about 1915 (or was it 1919) they used tariffs and other fees to fund the state. And or currency went from intrinsic value, to exchange value (the early greenback dollars called them gold certificates, and promised the bearer would be able to have equal value in gold), to fiat value (fiat means "because I said so" such money is based on our belief and not on actual rare physical items, it is not backed by anything), to fiat debt (where the money no longer is about value but printing on demand whenever someone takes out a loan), to digitally backed currency, to digital only currency. By stages, your freedom is sold away, and by the time you get to the last, you are talking about your every expense geolocated and tagged for taxation. This is slavery even if you think you are rich.
3. The human being is regarded by the secular community not as a separate spiritual creation from the animals, with a different destiny, and with intrinsic worth (told you I'd get back to that) but as an evolved animal like the other ones of the Cenozoic era. If humans have intrinsic worth, it means God values us on our own, not because of rarity (though driving across farmland you could make this case) but because of our being made in God's image and because of God's love for us. If this is the case, then we are humans, creatures worthy of being treated with inherent rights and respect. But if we see the secular mindset, then humans are a sort of farm animal that has populated out of control, and deserve to be branded like with cattle or chipped like we already do with cats and dogs, and who deserve to be culled like any other herd. The notion that humans are nothing special is a dangerous one, not just to the avoiding of human enslavement and mistreatment, but if we say we "love" our pets, and treat wach other like this, how are we likely to mistreat ourpets?
4. Lastly, the slavery to sin. Most of this you will not understand, but sin at its core is separation from others and from God. The easiest example is addiction. If the wages of sin are death, this is what sin looks like as addiction. You are a happy kid who loves his parents, and has no addictions to speak of. At 17, you take up smoking. Your dad and mom, don't like what you're doing to yourself. You get in an angry argument and storm out. Separation. You smoke regularly, now living away from your parents, and holding a regular job to cover the rising bill of addiction. You have to take regular smoke breaks, being further separated from coworkers. Ultimately, as you get old, you are enslaved to your sin. You want me to tell you about being chained to a ventilator, having your neck plugged out? Then you eventually die to your sin. You usually die alone here, unless you are lucky enough to have family that cares despite caring first about your addiction. You die in separation. This is enslavement to your desires, this is what it looks like. This is not to say Christianity is about being a rigid stick in the mud. "I can do anything, but I will not be ruled by anything." As long as you value things of the physical world as things to be pursued, you are governed by them. If you allow God to govern you, then even an atheist will admit you are free (because by logic, that would mean Jesus is right about service of God being perfect freedom if there is no God). And a theist would agree, because serving God is turning your back on the addictions of the physical world.

You are a slave. Most religion is about becoming free.


Please excuse the wording, but you are ******* nuts.

Society...civilization...depends on individuals giving up significant "freedoms" in order to gain a true freedom.

From the sounds of what you write, you simply have a lot of growing-up to do. I hope you do it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2021 09:27 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Bandwagoning is not independent thought. It's an excuse for thought.

Sorry, you suck.

And my post directly above this one still applies.


My above reply applies to this one also.
0 Replies
 
papag
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2021 12:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Jesus knew that his kingdom was in the future, not present. He also knew that present government didn't have provisions for the poor but they allowed people to own slaves, which in a sense is a provision for the poor. Thus slavery was part of the economic system of the Roman Empire.
It definitely was not the best but it allowed a person to work for his means to live.
The Bible gives no indication that the enslavement of humans by other humans was part of God’s original purpose for mankind.
On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31)

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2021 02:05 pm
@papag,
papag wrote:

Jesus knew that his kingdom was in the future, not present. He also knew that present government didn't have provisions for the poor but they allowed people to own slaves, which in a sense is a provision for the poor. Thus slavery was part of the economic system of the Roman Empire.
It definitely was not the best but it allowed a person to work for his means to live.
The Bible gives no indication that the enslavement of humans by other humans was part of God’s original purpose for mankind.
On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31)



C'mon, Pap...that's the wrong road to travel.

No matter what...slavery is horse ****...served without whipped cream or a cherry on top. It sucks to be owned...and it sucks to have your family sold out from under you.

Jesus did not condemn slavery because Jesus thought there was nothing wrong with slavery...and because the god he worshiped (the god you worship) specifically gave permission to own and trade in slaves.

Why would Jesus even think of condemning slavery?

As for your comment that "...slavery was part of the economic system of the Roman Empire"...ummm...

...slavery was also a part of the economic system of the cotton growing states of 18th and 19th century America...an ESSENTIAL part. Are you saying that YOU would not condemn the slave owners of the south because the slaves were useful and, in fact, needed? Are you saying that if Jesus had come back during 19th century America...he would NOT have condemned our slavery because it was part of a thriving economic system?
papag
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2021 04:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
We both know that greed is the problem. Greed saw the opportunity to use slavery as the means to gain wealth. God gave humans freewill to do whatever they wanted and we agree many choose to use that gift of freewill to harm others. That is and was not God's plan and He's going to do something in the future. WE can't change the past but we can look for a better future.

(Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
(Matthew 5:5) “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2021 05:02 am
@papag,
papag wrote:


We both know that greed is the problem. Greed saw the opportunity to use slavery as the means to gain wealth. God gave humans freewill to do whatever they wanted and we agree many choose to use that gift of freewill to harm others. That is and was not God's plan and He's going to do something in the future. WE can't change the past but we can look for a better future.


Greed makes people do lots of things. But that does not mean that people cannot call those things wrong.

The question is: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

AND THE ANSWER IS THAT IT WOULD BE ABSURD FOR JESUS TO CONDEMN SLAVERY...BECAUSE THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED (AND THE GOD YOU WORSHIP) SAID THAT IT WAS PERMISSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO OWN AND TRADE IN SLAVES.

Your god said there was nothing wrong with it!

Fear of gods makes people say stupid things...and that is what you are doing here. You are pretending that your god did not say it is permissible for people to own and trade in slaves.

But your god did do that.



Quote:
(Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
(Matthew 5:5) “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.



That is all nonsense. Here is a quote that actually has significance in the question of this thread.

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff
papag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2021 07:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
As is the case with every Bible-related question, the issue of slavery must be considered in context. A careful examination of the Scriptures reveals that God deplores the mistreatment of humans.
Such an examination also reveals that the kind of slavery practiced by God’s people in the Bible is not the cruel and abusive slavery that is envisioned by most people today. And the Bible shows that God will deliver us from all forms of slavery in due time. Then, all mankind will enjoy true freedom.—Isaiah 65:21, 22.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2021 08:11 am
@papag,
In the context of the Roman Empire who practiced slavery. It was the Emperor Constantine who set up the Council of Nicaea. That council decided which Gospels and which parts of the Torah were included in the Bible, and just as important, what parts were left out, so the new state religion matched the values of the Roman Empire.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2021 08:14 am
@papag,
papag wrote:

As is the case with every Bible-related question, the issue of slavery must be considered in context. A careful examination of the Scriptures reveals that God deplores the mistreatment of humans.
Such an examination also reveals that the kind of slavery practiced by God’s people in the Bible is not the cruel and abusive slavery that is envisioned by most people today. And the Bible shows that God will deliver us from all forms of slavery in due time. Then, all mankind will enjoy true freedom.—Isaiah 65:21, 22.



Yeah, Pap, you are devoted to that god...and fear it...so you will never look at the reality of the myth. The god of the Bible is a disgusting mythological creature...possessed of all the traits any monster god could possess. I understand this. The ancient Hebrews were, as all ancient peoples were, surrounded by enemies who worshiped monstrous gods...gods capable of some of the most disgusting conduct ever invented. So they invented a god even more monstrous and disgusting in order to intimidate their enemies...and provide protection for themselves.

I understand your dilemma, Pap, I understand you self-imposed blindness. If I ever thought for a second that barbarian god existed, I would be fearful too. But I can easily guess that god to be fiction; anyone with a functioning brain can.

Go in peace...and preach your stuff to people willing to accept it. But if you decide you are going to peddle that nonsense in a thread of mine...you will get more blow back than you should want.
papag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2021 09:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
I understand!
Peace be with you!
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2021 05:52 am
@papag,
Frank said:
Quote:
If I ever thought for a second that barbarian god existed, I would be fearful too. But I can easily guess that god to be fiction; anyone with a functioning brain can.

Ask him how he got over all that fear and brain failure while studying for the priesthood. I think he is exaggerating how 'easy' it was.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2021 05:59 am
@Leadfoot,
And while he’s at it he can tell Frank your friend fancies him.
0 Replies
 
papag
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2021 06:14 am
@izzythepush,
My understanding is that Constantine was a Pagan ruler and had nothing to do with the Bible but he was involve in inventing creeds for the Roman Catholic church.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2021 06:38 am
@papag,
He started out Pagan, but he was on the lookout for a state religion. Monotheism is good if you have Emperor, one king etc.

If there is more than one deity there is a challenge.

The Bible was decided by the Romans to keep people in their place.

Aurelian failed with Sol Invictus, but we still celebrate his birthday.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2021 11:22 pm
@papag,
It was Emperor Constantine who decided to personally summon all the opposing and quarrelling Christian leaders to the first ever ‘World Council’. The date was 325 AD, in the town of Nicaea, where Constantine was to resolve the bitter source of contention between those differing bodies of beliefs. After Constantine 'THE JUDGE', had made 'HIS' decision on which belief the Christians should follow, he urged all council delegates to sign the revised formula as a statement of faith on which all Christians should in the future agree.

From the book--- “Jesus The Evidence,” by Ian Wilson. P. 144. “The Middle Ages, for the Jews at least, began with the advent to power of Constantine the Great. He was the first Roman Emperor to issue laws which radically limited the rights of the Jews as citizens’ of the Roman Empire, a right conferred on them by Caracalla in 212. As Constantine’s church grew in power it influenced the emperors to limit further the civil and political rights of the Jews.

But if times were again difficult for the Jews, for the Christian Gnostics and other fringe groups they were impossible. The books of Arius and his sympathizers were ordered to be burnt, and a reign of terror proclaimed for all those who did not conform with the new official Christian line decided upon by Emperor Constantine.

:Understand now by this present statute, Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulinians, you who are called Cataphrygians. . . . with what a tissue of lies and vanities, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inextricably woven! We give you warning . . . .Let none of you presume, from this time forward, to meet in congregations. To prevent this, we command that you be deprived of all the houses in which you have been accustomed to meet . . . . and that these house’s, should be handed over immediately to the catholic/ i.e. universal church.

Within a generation, hardly leaving a trace of their existence for posterity, the great majority of these groups simply died away as successive Christian emperors reiterated the policies that Constantine had pursued.”
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 07:26 am
@The Anointed,
It is so telling when a bit of history gets you thumbed down.

Cheers!
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 03:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
Thumbs up by the intelligent. Are you a Catholic old mate?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2021 05:37 pm
@The Anointed,
Not even remotely. I have no current denominational affiliation although i have been kicked out of a few Protestant denominations I looked at. I identify as a Theist when asked.

You?
 

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