9
   

Is the Euro well and truly buggered?

 
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 01:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
At short maturities German and US notes trade at negative interest rates. Buyers are obviously uninterested in yields, they just want safety of principal.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 02:05 pm
@High Seas,
Safety of principal? That would be under your mattress. Many banks are now going bankrupt along with most country's economies.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 05:49 pm
Quote:
ROME/MADRID (Reuters) - Italy's borrowing costs soared to their highest levels since Rome joined the euro on Friday, piling pressure on the newly installed government of Mario Monti at the end of a week in which the euro zone crisis tainted even safe haven Germany.
A punishing bond sale, in which Italy was forced to pay a record 6.5 percent for six months paper, came after a disastrous German bond auction earlier in the week and the leaders of France, Germany and Italy failed to make headway in tackling the growing debt crisis.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sarkozy-merkel-agree-stop-sniping-080615550.html


Quote:
Belgium’s credit rating was cut one step by Standard & Poor’s, which said bank guarantees, political instability and slowing economic growth will make it difficult to reduce the nation’s debt load.

The rating was lowered one step to AA, the third-highest investment grade, with a negative outlook, S&P said today in a statement. The action by S&P is the first downgrade for Belgium in almost 13 years and puts its credit ranking on a par with Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.

“Renewed funding and market risk pressures are increasing the likelihood that the Belgian financial sector will require more sovereign support,” S&P said in the statement. “The crystallization of these financial sector contingent liabilities would lead to further increase in government debt.”


Belgium’s borrowing costs have surged to the highest level in 11 years in the past two months after the nation’s government agreed to buy Dexia SA’s Belgian bank unit and guarantee part of the crisis-hit lender’s liabilities for 10 years. Investors continued a selloff in Belgian bonds after six-party coalition talks ran aground this week as Liberals and Socialists clashed over how to cut the budget deficit.

Belgium follows Slovenia, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Cyprus and Greece as euro-area countries having their credit rating cut this year.


http://business.financialpost.com/2011/11/25/belgium-downgraded-by-sp/

Today was another horrible day in the global economy emergency room.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 08:31 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Very far from going kaputt the long bond auction was a masterstroke by the German Fincnce Agency - their short-term bonds yield close to zero, so it's hardly a funding shortfall - taking pressure off their chancellor and off the ECB simultaneously, while not overburdening the Finanzagentur with inventory.
Quote:
....The Finanzagentur issued only 3.9bln cash. They gave 3.9bln bunds to the market and kept 2.1bln bonds on their books. In the future they can sell this retention amount into the secondary market, raising cash....

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/11/german-bunds
Brilliant logistical execution by Wolfgang S. Smile
Probably all true, but still the market response was an ominous indicator for the potential for further contaigon. Hard for me to see it otherwise.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 09:43 pm
@georgeob1,
I see it the same way; liquidity problems are now worldwide, and the weight on Germany to make the Euro stabilized is an impossible task for the short and long term. The largest Euro countries are all beginning to show weakness in their economy and ability to pay on their bonds.

Logistically speaking, I see Germany in a very untenable position.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 10:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
How far behind them are we?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 11:11 pm
@georgeob1,
Our economy still has some strength, because of our diversity of products and services, and many profitable companies are holding huge cash balances. Although our unemployment rate is considered high by historical standards, the remaining economy is quite strong compared to other economies.

Because of this considered position in our economy, our ability to reduce our country's deficit is better than most, but it will take our government to cut costs for our future economic stability. That includes adjustments to social benefits and tax increases; both are needed - not one at the expense of the other.

Washington is broken; they are consistently in gridlock, and what needs to be done is left for the future.

It leaves it to the voters to replace all those in congress to appoint people who are willing to negotiate and compromise. Whether that will happen in 2012 is doubtful, but I continue to hope.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 02:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The problem with your argument is that there is no possibility of reducing long term deficits without significasnt entitlement reform - even with the excessive tax increases the Democrats are demanding. Today's world is dominated by examples of the financial unsustainability of the very social democratic model that Obama is pushing us towards. Despite that, he has ignored the recommendations of the Simpson Bowles panel he appointed, and completely failed to address the truth of that problem, and, instead, deflects attention from the unpleasant truth by stoking the fires of class envy and struggle.

Meanwhile our deficit continues to grow at an unprecedented pace and our accumulated debt gets ever closer to that of the failing economies in Europe.

Lastly, while our economy does, indeed have some growth capacity, it has so far not been sufficient to reduce unemployment. This is largely a result of the anti growth policies of the government with respect to energy policy, trade, unquestioning support of labor unions, and the dead hand of growing regulation.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 03:28 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The problem with your argument is that there is no possibility of reducing long term deficits without significasnt entitlement reform
True, but there is no way to do it without extensive growth in the economy either....growth being the plan since the mid eighties for propping up this failing global economic system. It was the chasing after excessive growth that got us into our current mess though, the only known solution became the problem. Now we are fucked, and whacking entitlements will not save the economy. It will also push forwards the start of the revolution that brings down the current failed global economy.

If there was a way out of this death we would have deployed it before now, too many powerful people have a stake in saving what we have. There is none, so perhaps the best course of action is to do nothing, wait for the apocalypse, and see what gets left to rebuild on. This is the explanation for why nothing of significants is being done at this 11 hour.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 03:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
Note: there is a drumbeat about how political leaders are not able to lead, thus allegedly is the main problem now, and while the point is fair enough very few people want to talk about how the economic stewards who advise the political elite can not agree on what the current problems are nor what the solutions to them are. It is a bit rich to blame to political leaders for not doing the right thing when the subject matter experts can not agree on what the right thing is.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 04:54 pm
@georgeob1,
I will repeat; adjustments to social benefit programs must be adjusted in addition to increase in taxes; both are necessary.

I'm not sure where you see the problem with my argument?

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 06:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I will repeat; adjustments to social benefit programs must be adjusted in addition to increase in taxes; both are necessary


They are trying to find the sweet spot of government spending and government earning potential (taxes) that allows the economy to grow enough to save it....but there is no reason to think that this imaginary point exists. We are running out of ability to do what we have been doing however, which is to run monster deficits all the time in the attempt to sweep the structural problem under the rug.

Folk should have paid attention to what happens between the states when corporations can play one state off of the others...the corporation is in the drivers seat because they can go to whom ever makes the best deal. Under this scheme the states dont have the ability to increase taxes on corporations,they have enough trouble keeping corporations in their state with out lowering their taxes after each time the previous deal times-out (or alternately offering more welfare to the corporation). Under the global economy scheme put in place after Reagan, and expanded by every President after Reagan, nations have increasingly less ability to raise money through taxes.

Neither cutting spending nor raising taxes enough to pay our debts without killing the economy is no longer possible. The global economy is now doomed, and I think that almost all of the elites know this but they dont want to think about it nor talk about it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 06:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
I disagree; it's still not too late to make the corrections that will reduce the deficit.

Contrary to the "end the world" scenario, I still have faith in the US economy; its strength and the ability of US companies to compete in the world marketplace. As far as I'm concerned, it's the only "game in town" that "we" can rely on. It certainly isn't Germany, China, or Japan.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 07:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Contrary to the "end the world" scenario, I still have faith in the US economy;
It is a global economy now, and the structural problems of this global economy have no solutions under the current regulation system. There is too much inequity, too much debt, too much consumption and too much power in the hands of the profiteers.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 08:23 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

. . . the dead hand of growing regulation.


I kind of like that phrase.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 09:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
I've considered the fact that we now live in the world economy. It's not the "regulations" that are creating the inequality; it's how profitable companies are shifting wealth to the CEO's and officers of the company, and not giving the other workers their fair share of the profit. When the CEO's are now earning some 300% more than the average worker of the company, it's no longer fairly distributed.

Consumption is what makes up 75% of our economy; it's about personal responsible financial management. Banks are also screwing the consumer by charging atrocious interest rates and fees while paying almost nothing on cash in the bank. It's no longer a matter of giving free toasters for new accounts; it's about "how can we charge consumers more?"

There are pockets in our country where many are still living pretty well; they're still driving luxury cars, and eating at expensive restaurants. Santa Row is San Jose is a good example of this "living well" economy..
Our ZIP Code is still selling homes for over $1 million.

According to the latest media reports, this year's Black Friday exceeded last year's sales by the first four hours.

Yes, I have hope for our economy.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 11:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
According to the latest media reports, this year's Black Friday exceeded last year's sales by the first four hours.
And a few weeks from now we will get a report that consumers have added more debt,again.

Quote:
During the Great Recession, median household income dropped by 3.2 percent, but during the “recovery” it has decreased by 6.7 percent. The recession may technically be over, but Americans’ personal financial crises remain all too real. While there have been some small positive month-to-month improvements in disposable income through 2011, overall levels have declined to those of early 2010.
Federal data reveal that between October of 2010 and October of 2011, real average weekly earnings fell by almost 2 percent, even as workers collectively put in more hours. The problem is that 70 percent of the economy depends on consumer spending, but 80 percent of families are experiencing declining wages. We aren’t suffering from some mass hysteria or lack of confidence; we’re broke.


http://news.yahoo.com/black-friday-2011-consumers-arent-lacking-confidence-lack-155237000.html

Quote:
There are pockets in our country where many are still living pretty well; they're still driving luxury cars, and eating at expensive restaurants. Santa Row is San Jose is a good example of this "living well" economy..
Our ZIP Code is still selling homes for over $1 million
Get out of your bubble CI, it clouds your judgement.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 11:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
What's wrong with debt? Most people have debt, and almost all governments have debt. If they are willing to pay the interest on their debt, who are you to determine their spending habits?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2011 11:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

What's wrong with debt? Most people have debt, and almost all governments have debt. If they are willing to pay the interest on their debt, who are you to determine their spending habits?
Excessive debt leads to collapse...and before that usury.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2011 12:41 am
It is now becoming clear Germany has had enough of this euro mess

The Anglo-Saxon world is feeling smug this weekend. UK and US policymakers are counting their blessings they’re not directly embroiled in the historic debacle that is the single currency.

Quote:
Many observers seem to think such market pressure means Angela Merkel will “relent”. With Berlin’s own credit-worthiness being openly questioned, the German chancellor is now apparently more likely to launch a massive “bail-out” fund for the eurozone laggards, while sanctioning overt QE “money-printing” by the European Central Bank.
I’d venture a different view. However much one particular branch of the German elite wants “the European project” to succeed, the vast majority of the German public are appalled at the idea of financing the rest of Europe. They resent not only the cost, but also (rightly) worry that one eurozone bail-out inevitably leads to another.
I reckon that surging bund yields make it less likely that Germany will agree to fund a bail-out, while letting the ECB let rip. German voters, and the country’s powerful parliament, will see rising borrowing costs as further proof of the harm the euro, in its current form, is doing. Merkel must answer to both.
Germany stood by and watched back in the 1990s, as the Exchange Rate Mechanism collapsed under the weight of its own incoherence. Since then, life has become much tougher for the big industrialised Western economies. While still head and shoulders above the rest of Europe, even Germany is now on the back foot. The country’s bellwether manufacturing PMI Index fell from 49.1 to 47.9 this month, indicating a sharp economic contraction. Germany would be unlikely to entertain money-printing and paying for a eurozone bail-out at the best of times. Under current circumstances, the chances are even slimmer.
I also think that those foreseeing “fiscal union” are also deeply misguided. We’re told that this is what Germany will insist upon as a quid pro quo for financially backstopping Europe’s southern states. Really? Merkel last week blasted the European Commission’s proposed eurobond, the issuing of sovereign debt in the name of all eurozone members but ultimately backed by Germany, labelling the idea “extremely worrying and inappropriate”.
There is clearly no hope of Germany stumping up any more bail-out cash without tighter controls on the “Club Med” countries’ purse strings. Such controls may be put in place. But that’s not “fiscal union”. The only way a single currency can work in the long term is by pooling a large share of total tax revenues and having intra-regional fiscal transfers, as in the US. Yet that will never happen in Western Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8917915/It-is-now-becoming-clear-Germany-has-had-enough-of-this-euro-mess.html

One vote "Yes' on the question "Is the Euro well and truly buggered?"
0 Replies
 
 

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