9
   

Is the Euro well and truly buggered?

 
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 03:36 pm
Even the stock market rises on the news of Berlusconi's resignation.
Whoever will replace him, I have sympathy for. Berlusconi will leave his successor not only a fiscal disaster...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 03:47 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Even the stock market rises on the news of Berlusconi's resignation.
Whoever will replace him, I have sympathy for. Berlusconi will leave his successor not only a fiscal disaster...
Hasn't Italy almost always been a financial disaster? They seem to take some amount of pride in it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 10:38 pm
@CalamityJane,
I agree that Berlisconi has evaded facing the fairly obvious structural economic problem that Italy faces now. However, I believe that statement could as accurately be mnade about any Italian government for the past forty years. Certainly I see little prospect of the highly divided Italian political class (or electorate) coming to grips with these iussues any time soon.

This may well be an ominous indicator for Europe - consider that three years after the emergence of the truth about Greek public debt and deficits emerged that country is still running a deficit of more than 25% of total expenditures; very little constructive action has been taken; and no consensus about economic renewal has yet emerged from a country that appears quite thoroughly addicted to handouts and subsidies. Will the prospect of government or the electorate in Italy coming to grips with the reality of their situation be any better?

The problem for us is that our paralysis appears to nearly equal theirs.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 12:53 am
@georgeob1,
Ther's a huge difference between our debt and Greece. Greece has no way to pay their current debt; our political system and economy provides us with many options. Not many people believes Egypt can pay their debt; many investors from around the world still buy US bonds.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 03:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
Of course they do. They expect to be paid by the proceeds from future bond sales.

There should be a name for schemes like this.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 05:44 am
BBC is reporting that Italian Bond Yields have hit 7% in the last few hours...WTF? Promises of a new government were supposed to help. Has Merkel just run out of time?

CNN is reporting 7.3% which means it is up .5% in 24 hours. The is increadably bad news...the ECB has no ability to save Italy
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 06:34 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Ther's a huge difference between our debt and Greece. Greece has no way to pay their current debt; our political system and economy provides us with many options. Not many people believes Egypt can pay their debt; many investors from around the world still buy US bonds.


Perhaps so. However people and major banks were happily buying Greek bonds until they stopped - then everything changed. I agree that the relative sixe of the Greek financial problem was somewhat greater than ours. However, the political paralysis and lack of public acceptance that there is a problem that must be solved is something we and some other European powers share with the Greeks.That is what got Greece to its present condition; that too is what threatens Italy now and that is a problem we have as well.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 11:32 am
Is this how the euro ends?

Ezra Klein

Quote:
Here’s how it was supposed to go: Greece first. Then, perhaps, Portugal and Ireland. If things got really bad, Spain. If the world -- or, more precisely, the euro -- was coming to an end, Italy. It was not supposed to go Greece and then Italy. No one was prepared for that. The markets weren’t prepared for that.


And so the markets are falling. The Dow is down 290 points. The Stoxx 50, a blue-chip index for the euro zone, is down 2.5 percent. Italy’s borrowing costs have skyrocketed. The Euro has plunged.

The problem, put simply, is that Italy is both too big to fail and too big to save. It’s the eighth-largest economy in the world. At $2 trillion, it’s about seven times as large as Greece’s $300 billion economy. France and Germany’s banks alone have $600 billion in exposure to Italian debt. But Barclay’s says Italy is “now mathematically beyond the point of no return.” Silvio Berlusconi might be out, but changing governments does not change arithmetic. And so the question is simple, and stark: If there wasn’t the will to really save Greece, where would the will -- and the money -- come from to save Italy?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/is-this-how-the-euro-ends/2011/08/25/gIQAEFBa5M_blog.html?hpid=z2

I am disappointed but not shocked that the current Italian Bond Yield is not getting more play on A2K this morning...this event is highly significant as well as is highly problematic, not only because Italy can not afford these rates and even the Germans dont have enough money to make it work, but also because this comes after the current government agreed to leave, after passing laws that the markets demanded. The Markets get what they want and still they punish Italy?? WTF?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 12:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The risk of contagion has become a reality with Italy, which does pose systemic risk, now seeing borrowing costs surge to unsustainable levels. But it’s not a done deal. Rosenberg notes that “ratings downgrades could come next. And after Italy, the bond vigilantes could come after France and if that happens, we may all kiss the EFSF goodbye unless the Germans opt to Finance a continent-wide bailout on its own.” France’s largest banks, BNP Paribas and Credit Agricole, hold a combined $416.4 billion in Italian private and public debt as of June, according to Bloomberg. France’s precarious AAA credit rating is under close scrutiny by credit rating agencies and a downgrade would put massive pressure on the EFSF and its AAA rating, which is only as strong as its weakest link. Back in Rome, Italian President Giorgio Napolitano, the head of state, was forced to release a statement aimed at calming financial markets given the “alarming state” of Italian bond yields. Napolitano said there was no doubt Berlusconi would quit after the “Stability Laws” were put in place, which would be approved within a few days. While Napolitano said that he can adopt emergency measures at a moment’s notice, Bloomberg reported that legislators haven’t even received the austerity bill they are supposed to begin debating on November 16. Furthermore, Barclays adds that even if legislators pass the “Stability Laws,” two weeks is by no means enough time for Italian policymakers to get it right. “In our view, though, two weeks is too short a time to approve comprehensive measures as required by EU partners, in particular those related to labor market, privatizations and liberalization. As also suggested in a letter sent to Italy by the European Commission, the plan presented to the EU summit lacks details about timing and implementation of key measures,” wrote the analyst. The impact of Europe’s sovereign debt crisis stretches well beyond Europe, though, and will affect companies on this side of the pond. General Motors’ Wednesday earnings release illustrated the company’s ongoing concern with Europe, and Ford, as I reported on Tuesday, has substantial sales exposure to the Old Continent. Even traditionally defensive stocks like Coca Cola and General Electric, register large revenue risk stemming from their European operations. If Italy were to default, the fallout would be devastating for Europe and the global economy.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bond-Vigilantes-To-Target-xfoftp-3197930406.html

Kinda looks like the Crash of the EU will beat out the crash of the USA...which one did you have your money on?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2011 11:52 pm
Finito?

Quote:
SILVIO BERLUSCONI'S promise to resign has done nothing to calm European bond markets. Italian bond yields are soaring today; both the two-year and the ten-year are above 7%. There are rumours that the ECB is in the market and buying heavily. If so, it's not having the desired effect. The ECB can't hope to keep yields reasonable through brute force. It will need to make an expectations-changing announcement. Will it? Italy's yields aren't the only ones rising. Markets are ditching Irish, Spanish, Belgian, and French debt too. The ten-year Treasury is back below 2%.

Yesterday, I wondered why equities weren't falling. Today, they are. But I think Tim Duy is on to something here:

All I can say is that we have been here before. Recall 2007...By the middle of 2007 the TED spread was exploding, signaling enormous financial turmoil. Yet equities kept heading upward, fueled by data that was just not that bad coupled with ongoing expectations that a solution was just around the corner. And now we find ourselves in almost the exact same position...the news out of Europe is abysmal...There is no solution, no magic summit at hand. At this point, it is a choice between severe recession and depression. There is no happy ending to this story.

I have been examining and re-examining the situation, trying to find the potential happy ending. It isn't there. The euro zone is in a death spiral. Markets are abandoning the periphery, including Italy, which is the world's eighth largest economy and third largest bond market. This is triggering margin calls and leading banks to pull credit from the European market. This, in turn, is damaging the European economy, which is already being squeezed by the austerity programmes adopted in every large euro-zone economy. A weakening economy will damage revenues, undermining efforts at fiscal consolidation, further driving away investors and potentially triggering more austerity. The cycle will continue until something breaks. Eventually, one economy or another will face a true bank run and severe capital flight and will be forced to adopt capital controls. At that point, it will effectively be out of the euro area. What happens next isn't clear, but it's unlikely to be pretty.

Can this cycle be interrupted? I think so. I think that an ECB guarantee to backstop sovereign debt, coupled with massive purchases to establish credibility and a substantial easing in monetary policy, could change the dynamic, particularly if quickly followed up with a major fiscal commitment from core economies to support bail-out efforts and invest in peripheral economies while peripheral economies focus on substantial labour market, public-sector, and tax reforms. How likely does all of that sound? Could the ECB even commit to the above bold actions without facing debilitating criticism, and perhaps intervention, from national governments?

I hate to get this pessimistic about the situation. It feels panicky and overwrought. I can't believe that Europe would allow so damaging an outcome as a financial collapse and break-up to occur. And I still don't understand why, if this is all as obvious as it seems to me, equities aren't down 20% now, rather than 2% or 3%. But the window within which something could be done to prevent it is closing, and fast. I hope to be proven astoundingly wrong in my assessment, but I'm struggling to see alternative outcomes


http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/11/euro-crisis-5

Sounds Right
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 01:20 am
@hawkeye10,
I believe the biggest problem facing the Euro countries are the inability of each country to arrive at a consensus on solutions. If left to the Germans, their economy is not big enough to save all of the struggling countries.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2011 08:36 pm
Well the major European powers have arrived at an agreement for a second round of bailouts for the feckless Greeks and a more substantial reserve fund for the banks and the stabilization of the Euro. Italy has induced PM Berlisconi to resign in favor of a new government run by (relatively) non political economists to quickly put in place some already outlined measures to reduce spending and stimulate growth in the Italian economy and stabilize the market for Italian Bonds. Meanwhile the Irish are continuing progress toward debt reduction and economic recovery and the Spaniards are starting to take needed measures to address their post 2007 problems. Significant actions (some late and others arguably insufficient) are underway everywhere in Europe, except ..... Greece, where PM Papandreu continues to obfuscate about his intentions - will he attempt to pass the eneabling legislation for the recent agreements? Will he resume his earlier efforts for a referendum? Will he resign as most observers in Europe hope in favor of an interim government? What the hell will he do? No one appears to know.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2011 09:22 pm
@georgeob1,
Well, Lucas Papademos, the former VP of the European Central Bank, is interim prime minister and both of the largest political parties hope that he'll bring them through the economic crisis. I think he was an excellent choice, Papademos is known to be a brilliant economist, pragmatic and immune to the emotional outburst of the Greek. He has good contacts to the financial and political scene in Europe.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2011 12:49 am
Quote:
Particularly remarkable are some of the comments attributed to Deutsche Bank’s chief economist, Thomas Mayer. In talks with Ambassador Murphy he mentioned the possibility of Germany leaving the euro zone.
He was apparently basing his remarks on a 1990s decision taken by Germany’s Constitutional Court, which ruled it would be possible for Germany to leave “if the currency union were to become an inflation zone” or the German taxpayer a “de facto rescuer

http://www.worldcrunch.com/wikileaks-euro-revelation-germany-had-underestimated-greek-debt-threat/4085

HA! I have been wondering for months if Germany will end the EuroZone by way of ditching it, because it is the only country with a decent ability to go it alone.....I seem to recall hearing some A2K'ers claim that I am nuts, but I guess that ain't so.
CalamityJane
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2011 09:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
You can't even interpret the article properly. This was a wikileaks document
where Thomas Mayer from the Deutsche Bank, not a politician, was telling
Ambassador Murphy what the thinks should happen. That document is from 2010 and in the end of the article it clearly said
Quote:
Things have changed since. After the last EU summit a number of signs pointed to the possibility of Greece being the first euro zone country to come under economic guardianship.


Reading and comprehending are two different things.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 12:01 am
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
Reading and comprehending are two different things.
My point stands, serious people have had the thought that Germany might ought to ditch the Euro.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:06 am
@hawkeye10,
For once, think logically: Germany cannot and will not ditch the Euro - Germany benefits (next to France) the most from it. An exclusion of several countries might be very well possible, but Germany won't be part of it. The EU with its original partners was very successful and will remain that way.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:22 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
Three realities define Europe’s situation.

First, the crisis is as much political and social as it is economic. The “European model” of generous social benefits and secure jobs is besieged. Welfare states have become too costly for many countries’ economies to support. Benefits must be curtailed. The austerity now being imposed or recommended inflicts direct hardship and assaults beliefs and expectations that have been nurtured for decades.

Second, Europe can no longer rescue itself. There are too many potentially needy debtors and too few credible lenders. The main rescue mechanism — the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) — has already committed about 250 billion euros of its 440 billion euros to Greece, Ireland and Portugal, reports the Institute of International Finance, an industry group (and the source of most data cited here). Even an expanded EFSF probably couldn’t handle Italy and certainly not Spain and France. The European Central Bank — Europe’s Federal Reserve — could buy unlimited amounts of government bonds. But it has so far disdained this role, fearing the inflationary consequences.

Finally, the IMF is in no position today to rescue Europe. At last count, it had about $400 billion in available funds. This wouldn’t cover Italy’s refinancing needs for a year. So the IMF needs more money.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/will-anyone-rescue-europe-from-its-economic-crisis/2011/11/15/gIQAbxe5ON_story.html?hpid=z2
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
HAVE INVESTORS IN EUROPE USURPED NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY FROM THE PEOPLE?

Silvio Berlusconi's departure in Italy, and the arrival of the economic technocrat Mario Monti, is just the latest sign that market forces may weigh even more than popular will on who is governing in Europe.

Quote:
PARIS - In Europe, investors are running the show. They have the ability to steer a country’s conduct of economic affairs and to make or unmake governments. What used to be the purview of the sovereign people of a nation have now passed into the hands of a few who trade on global markets.
The most recent example is the successful financial coup in Italy. In spite of countless attempts, neither prosecutors nor Italian public opinion had managed to get Silvio Berlusconi to leave office. All the financial markets needed was a few days of heavy pressure on the rates of the Italian debt. Now trusted former European Union Commissioner Mario Monti has stepped into Berlusconi's spot, in large part in the hopes that it will calm investor worries.
The scalp of the Italian executive was added to those of the heads of the Greek, Irish and Portuguese governments. And a new austerity plan is soon going to expand a growing list. Like it or not, politics in Europe are now taking place in the trash heap of the economic crisis.
How did it get so bad? Without coercion or conspiracy, governments gradually abandoned the reins of power to Europe’s creditors. The turning point happened in March 2005, when instead of going on a diet, France and Germany put pressure on the EU Council to relax the rules of the European Stability and Growth Pact, which they deemed too inflexible and ultimately unenforceable.
A door was thus opened to allow public finances across the euro zone to start sliding. Since then, deficits and debts have continued to grow, greatly increased by the crisis of 2008-2009. As a result, the House of Europe has changed hands. And its new owner is worried about paying the rent. Such anxiety can be seen as blown out of proportion.
However, some European members are so desperate that they have no choice but to give guarantees to their creditors. For Europe, decision time has come. It can no longer walk the path it has followed so far, simply transferring pressure from its investors onto its most indebted member states, just in order to keep up appearances.
The situation in Italy struck a blow in the heart of Europe. And as things stand, the vortex could soon sweep away Belgium, or even France, judging by the evolution of their interest rates. Regaining control means moving towards federalism as soon as possible. This too will obviously involve a significant loss in terms of sovereignty. But the sacrifice is actually not that great, because that same sovereignty has now become virtual -- and subject to the will of investors.


http://www.worldcrunch.com/have-investors-europe-usurped-national-sovereignty-people/4093

This is going to be a problem....there is no way in hell that the people of Earth will consent to being ruled by profiteers. Revolution can not be far away now.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 11:48 am
@CalamityJane,
I agree with you about the likely intentions of the German government and indeed those of most of the major economic powers in Europe. However, I have two very fundamental concerns.

1. It remains to be seen whether the "technocratic" new governments of Greece and Italy will be able to command the political force with which to really apply the very likely wise economic remedies they will propose. Government subsidies, benefits and rules protecting the economic situations of some citizens quickly create generally well-organized political factions dedicated to the preservation of these advantages at all costs. This is observable everywhere, including the USA. Greece and Italy appear particularly saturated with these things, and it is far from clear to me that the political force exists sufficient to limit them enough to achieve the economic growth they will need to avert crisis. This is a problem we face as well, though the time-critical intensity is a bit less - and we are clearly having a hard go of it as well.

2. Today's reported rises in the Bond yields for even economically healthy European countries remind us that the fear and contaigon are still spreading. The major Europoean leaders have been working hard and creating remedies that, by past standards, would have been more than sufficient. However, the crisis situation has been developing even faster, and the leadership continually finds itself reacting to a situation that remains ahead of their efforts to date. No signs yet that this has changed.
 

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