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Are atheists being more illogical than agnostics?

 
 
fresco
 
  2  
Mon 15 Jun, 2015 11:59 pm
@FBM,
With reservations about the word "really", you are correct. "Existence" is not confined to "physical manifestation". What the word "really" tends to do is to imply a factor which affects the actions and thoughts of an individual. An "atheist" is a dissenter from such actions and thoughts. One person's "reality" is another person's "fantasy". And since "reality" tends to be constructed and sustained through social forces, "religion" has been a marker for group identity. In this sense "logic" is irrelevant to both atheism and agnosticism. Self declared atheists are making social identity statements, and agnostics are social fence sitters.

Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Tue 16 Jun, 2015 02:58 am
@fresco,
Quote:
...agnostics are social fence sitters.


http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/3/34/Bullshit.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101009140746


Quote:
Self declared atheists are making social identity statements...


"Self declared atheists" are simply showing pride in being more illogical than agnostics.

Yup...they are being so illogical...they are actually bragging about it.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Tue 16 Jun, 2015 03:08 am
@fresco,
Quote:
...and agnostics are social fence sitters.


Maybe. Maybe not.



Wink
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 17 Jun, 2015 10:34 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

With reservations about the word "really", you are correct. "Existence" is not confined to "physical manifestation". What the word "really" tends to do is to imply a factor which affects the actions and thoughts of an individual. An "atheist" is a dissenter from such actions and thoughts. One person's "reality" is another person's "fantasy". And since "reality" tends to be constructed and sustained through social forces, "religion" has been a marker for group identity. In this sense "logic" is irrelevant to both atheism and agnosticism. Self declared atheists are making social identity statements, and agnostics are social fence sitters.




Don't forget that even theists are also atheists themselves. They only believe in the existence of "their" god and deny the existence or lack a belief in the existence of all other gods from other religions.

Not to mention that philosophers like Bertrand Russell and other early 20th century philosophers bastardized the word agnostic to mean a person who is between theism and atheism. When it really is suppose to refer to lacking knowledge and has nothing to do with belief.

The reality is EVERYONE is agnostic so it is redundant to claim you are or are not agnostic. Because no one has knowledge that a god exists. If there is such a person, they wouldn't need faith or belief because knowledge trumps both faith and belief.
FBM
 
  2  
Wed 17 Jun, 2015 10:39 pm
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/your-argument-is-invalid-because-aliens.jpg
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 17 Jun, 2015 10:46 pm
@FBM,
I always liked that guy on the history channel. It was like the producers were attempting to see if anyone would actually take that guy serious. Just look at him. It was like they sought out the biggest stoner they could find, slapped a suit on him and asked him to talk about ancient aliens then filmed it like he is some kind of expert and has archaeological evidence to support his claims. It's like the history channel is doing it's best to troll it's viewers.
FBM
 
  1  
Wed 17 Jun, 2015 10:48 pm
@Krumple,
I never thought of it that way, but yeah. Sounds about right...
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Wed 17 Jun, 2015 11:54 pm
@Krumple,
Define "knowledge" without reference to a concept of "reality". If you cannot then your argument is spurious relative to the view that "reality is socially/linguistically constructed". That is the point where (the later) Wittgenstein et al departed from Russell and the logical positivists. In short "knowledge" is about "confidence in what works " in terms of prediction and control, and for some "God" is what works.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Thu 18 Jun, 2015 04:36 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
The reality is EVERYONE is agnostic so it is redundant to claim you are or are not agnostic. Because no one has knowledge that a god exists. If there is such a person, they wouldn't need faith or belief because knowledge trumps both faith and belief.


And since no one has knowledge that there are no gods...anyone making such an assertion is working from "belief" and "faith" also.

Anyone who claims "knowledge" plays a part in asserting "there are no gods" or "it is more likely there are no gods than that there is at least one" is kidding him or herself. One does not come to either of those things through reason, logic, or science. Such atheistic assertions are as much a product of "belief" as any theistic assertions.
Krumple
 
  0  
Thu 18 Jun, 2015 05:38 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Define "knowledge" without reference to a concept of "reality". If you cannot then your argument is spurious relative to the view that "reality is socially/linguistically constructed". That is the point where (the later) Wittgenstein et al departed from Russell and the logical positivists. In short "knowledge" is about "confidence in what works " in terms of prediction and control, and for some "God" is what works.


I know what you are attempting to do, but it is silly. Although we do have a way of verifying reality. It's through comparative perspectives. This is why when you experiment and collect data, it is important that others are welcomed to reproduce the experiment to see if they come to the same conclusion. Regardless if reality is real or not, is completely unimportant. It is the ONLY thing we have.

I understand if you take things like mental illness or some other psychological issue where comparative realities tend to clash. But that is just the thing, without this ability we would never be able to diagnose mental illnesses. Not only that but we wouldn't be able to determine any health issue. Reality is consistent and it is due to this consistency that we develop laws. If reality was not consistent we would never be able to develop any scientific laws. Reality is not subjective as you are attempting to suggest.
fresco
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jun, 2015 07:30 am
@Krumple,
I never used the word "subjective". The argument is that the subjective-objective dichotomy is irrelevant. All we have is potentially transient degrees of consensus about which "science" coins the term "universal laws" where there appears to be unanimity. But those "laws" (even the constancy of the speed of light) are often limited in application and subject to revision. In short, they are functional summaries of human expectancies about what they call "data".
Species specific physiology suggests that humans are going to substantially agree about many of their interactions with their world. Therein lies the essence of "consistency".
Krumple
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jun, 2015 08:34 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

I never used the word "subjective". The argument is that the subjective-objective dichotomy is irrelevant. All we have is potentially transient degrees of consensus about which "science" coins the term "universal laws" where there appears to be unanimity. But those "laws" (even the constancy of the speed of light) are often limited in application and subject to revision. In short, they are functional summaries of human expectancies about what they call "data".
Species specific physiology suggests that humans are going to substantially agree about many of their interactions with their world. Therein lies the essence of "consistency".


The point that we can communicate at all is evidence that reality is consistent. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to comprehend anything that is said because the context of the words would be so subjective in your experience it would be like I was speaking a language you couldn't understand.

There is shared experience and the more shared the experience the more solid the conclusions become. This is why science stresses repeated experimentation and not to stop or ever be satisfied completely with a result. You seem to want to think that this proves science is faulty or something but no it's because we don't always have a definitive way to verify our findings. There is no resource cosmic log book to fact check our answers with, despite some trying to claim we do.

Reality isn't subjective, if it were we wouldn't be able to communicate AT ALL. Language itself is evidence that reality is not subjective. Therefore there is consistency in reality which hypothesis can be made, tested, experimented with.

It is irrelevant if reality were some sham or the creation of our own brains. None of that matters because we can interact on the basis of this "false" existence and find similarities between us. If there was not these similarities it would be like sharing a dream with another person where the rules of the dream were completely up to the dreamer. Where one person believes they can't fly at their own command and the other person can and it defies the belief of the other as to why that would be possible. We don't see this in reality because reality is consistent over all our collective experience with it.

This is how we develop laws, because reality is consistent and doesn't just randomly change. The speed of light examples are understood but you have to remember occasionally these tests are faulty like the recent one where a particle was thought to have traveled faster than light. No, the experiment was faulty.

The problem with quantum physics is that we are dealing with concepts that don't have a direct experience in reality. They seem counter intuitive and this is why people object to it. But people do this all the time. Just like the example of "solidity" is nothing more than the repulsive force. There is NOTHING else in reality other than this force. But it is so counter intuitive that people can't accept it.
fresco
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jun, 2015 09:49 am
@Krumple,
Well without getting into the details of the "nonrepresentationalist view" of language (Rorty, Quine et al), we need to recognize that "communication" is about mutual projects with respect to a shared world rather than about the world per se. What this implies with respect to this thread is that "believers" tend share one sort of "world" and "scientists" another. An individual can of course wear both hats, but he will tend to use different semantic nuances according to context. The argument about "logicality" therefore falls flat because words like "existence" take on different nuances according to the hat being worn. The fallacy exposed by Rorty et al is that words are predicated on "a consistent world" whereas in essence they evoke such a world by virtue of their own invariance as phonetic/graphemic entities rather than their transient semantic usage. Wittgenstein called this phenomenon "language games".
Krumple
 
  1  
Thu 18 Jun, 2015 05:06 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Well without getting into the details of the "nonrepresentationalist view" of language (Rorty, Quine et al), we need to recognize that "communication" is about mutual projects with respect to a shared world rather than about the world per se. What this implies with respect to this thread is that "believers" tend share one sort of "world" and "scientists" another. An individual can of course wear both hats, but he will tend to use different semantic nuances according to context. The argument about "logicality" therefore falls flat because words like "existence" take on different nuances according to the hat being worn. The fallacy exposed by Rorty et al is that words are predicated on "a consistent world" whereas in essence they evoke such a world by virtue of their own invariance as phonetic/graphemic entities rather than their transient semantic usage. Wittgenstein called this phenomenon "language games".



I have never seen the issue with the word "exist" that you are mentioning here. Unless you are saying theists or religious people have been attempting to claim that something can exist without needing to have verifiable evidence for it's existence.

Show me this issue about the word existence, or exists. I don't buy what you are saying here.
fresco
 
  1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 12:16 am
@Krumple,
Check out Heidegger on "being" or Rorty on "non-representationalism".

With respect to this thread, this clip might be useful background to my summary above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjhVk-0Vhmk

Note too that "ontology" (theories about "existence") is a major issue in philosophy.
Krumple
 
  0  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 12:35 am
@fresco,
I saw this coming before you even posted it. It is almost always the religious who are attempting to broaden the definition of what it means to exist. The reason is they need their god to qualify. Therefore they need to bastardize the definition so they can claim victory. If the dictionary claims a god can exist without requiring any evidence to prove that existence then it therefore must exist. Nonsense.

If you do that then every absurd thing must also exist purely by consistency. Yet I doubt the christian would accept that when faced with the consequence of this attempt to result in the existence of Zeus, Ra and Odin. I always love how they are certain none of these other cultural gods exist yet they are certain their god does.

If you can't prove something to be true, then change the definition so by default it claims it does for you. Nice try.
fresco
 
  1  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 04:39 am
@Krumple,
"Seeing it coming" is simply an admission of perceptual set. As a published scientist and atheist myself, I know all about that posture, but it behoves us to try to understand where deists are coming from since they represent a sizable part of humanity. Its not simply about a game played by aspiring "realists" with winners and losers. We need to take into account that many competent deep thinkers have classified themselves as "believers". That alone should indicate that "reality" can reside in part in the eye of the beholder.
Frank Apisa
 
  -2  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 07:44 am
@fresco,
Quote:
That alone should indicate that "reality" can reside in part in the eye of the beholder.


http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--ifK8cFEn--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/196qxycq0lk1djpg.jpg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 19 Jun, 2015 08:19 am
@FBM,
That hair guy is so fuckin annoying . I wish theyd get rid of him and give me back my HISTORY CHANNEL with honest to god history.

Theres 3 fuckin alien pushing clowns whose every statement is an apologetic for aliens "did it"

If there were alien, Im sure these three douche bags would be giving em hum jobs.

0 Replies
 
AugustineBrother
 
  0  
Tue 9 Aug, 2016 01:37 pm
@igm,
An agnostic either deserts reason and makes an excuse or admits reason but just doesn't care. Now an atheist usually gives lip service to the reasonableness of not believing but almost never gives an actual reason.

It isn't logic. It's will and self-respect. If you don't know and you still say reason is capable of knowing then you condemn yourself if you aren't out there trying to get the answer, even if you do it til death.

“More consequences for thought and action follow the affirmation or denial of God than from answering any other basic question.”

- Mortimer Adler


(Great Books of the Western World (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1952), p. 561.)
0 Replies
 
 

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