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Sun 8 May, 2011 03:50 pm
Obviously there are major academic advantages, but could anyone outline the exact advantages when it comes to employment? Thanks, pq.
@The Pentacle Queen,
It's a good way to get into most companies, but performance is what counts after you get in.
I do not believe there are any "exact advantages" when it comes to employment - after you're hired.
Most employers do not bother looking at where you matriculated from, but depend on performance evaluations.
I have a master's degree from Harvard and I haven't found any advantage to it.
However, while looking at standards for English 101, I found Princeton's. My community college students wouldn't understand them.
@cicerone imposter,
I slightly beg to differ. I had no trouble at all getting a really good job after graduating from a good university. (Or maybe I was just so wonderful.) Now I gather there is trouble for all new graduates, but it seems to me it would be a help to have creds from a prestigious place.
I do agree that after that, performance matters.
This doesn't mean I'm all for even the smartest always aiming for, say, the ivy league. Best, I think, to look at what a given school offers that you are interested in re specific departments or even the seeming philosophy of that particular school - all things being equal re convenience, cost, possible scholarships, interest in the environment/area around the school.
@ossobuco,
osso, That's what I said; it's a good way to get a job at most companies. Actually, we don't differ.
@The Pentacle Queen,
Michael Ignatieff went to Harvard and he went on to almost destroy the Liberal party of Canada, quite an accomplishment i'd say
In the Canadian federal election held on May 2, 2011, Ignatieff lost his seat in Parliament while the Liberal Party lost 43 seats, placing a distant third behind the Conservatives and NDP. He essentially lost the right to call himself the Leader of the Opposition at that point, and that position remains vacant until his successor, Jack Layton, is sworn in at the resumption of Parliament on May 30, 2011. On May 3, 2011, Ignatieff revealed in a press conference that he will resign as leader of the Liberal Party, pending the selection of an interim leader.
it's the first time in party history that they failed to either form a Government or form the Opposition,
I think you get a good education (which can be had elsewhere) but the biggest benefit, I think, is the mystique of having gone there. It opens doors. Plus, students make good connections which also open doors.
I spent a short time at a prestigious art school and that was the one thing interviewers always commented on. The other two schools I went to were, I think, far better schools but they were never asked about.
The fact that the schools are viewed as being highly competitive and hard to get into lets interviewers know that someone else has reviewed you and picked you out from the crowd. That gives them some confidence that you're a good choice to hire.
@cicerone imposter,
That's true, just a nuance of emphasis difference.
It may also depend on one's major. Mine was bacteriology with a lot of zoology classes on the side, a useful major at the time, and yours was accounting, right? I think plainoldme's was more esoteric thus maybe not immediately applicable to some situations.
@ossobuco,
Yes, mine was accounting. Even with Stanford and Cal Berkeley in our area, accounting majors were in demand by all the big five CPA firms, because our school, Cal State Hayward, had a good rep. I had three job offers from CPA firms in San Francisco, and one from Florsheim Shoe Company. I went to Florsheim, because I knew trying to compete with hundreds of new accounting grads at CPA firms would only bury me by the huge numbers of competitors. I made the right choice.
Supposedly, what one majors in doesn't matter. Try looking up the biographies of several famous people. Many follow careers that have nothing to do with their college majors while others may hold three or four degrees, all in different fields.
@The Pentacle Queen,
timely question
about college education in general, not just the Ivy League
The University Has No Clothes
Quote:The notion that a college degree is essentially worthless has become one of the year’s most fashionable ideas, with two prominent venture capitalists (Cornell ’89 and Stanford ’89, by the way) leading the charge.
<full page snip>
Quote:the skepticism is spreading, even among foot soldiers on the academic front lines.
In March, “Professor X,” an anonymous English instructor at two middling northeastern colleges, published In the Basement of the Ivory Tower, an expansion of an Atlantic essay arguing that college has been dangerously oversold and that it borders on immoral to ask America’s youth to incur heavy debt for an education for which millions are simply ill-equipped.
Professor X’s book came out on the heels of a Harvard Graduate School of Education report that made much the same point. The old policy cri de coeur “college for all,” the report argues, has proved inadequate; rather than shunting everyone into four-year colleges, we should place greater emphasis on vocational programs, internships, and workplace learning.
<another page snipped out>
Quote:the data gathered in recent years on the value of college has been mixed at best, blunting the moral edge of “college for all” and turning some higher-ed advocates into skeptics like Altucher and Thiel.
This new criticism of higher education comes from three main sources. The first is the reality that, while all parents want their kids to complete college, little more than half of those millions who haul their laptops to campus each fall actually end up with a bachelor’s degree. The United States now has the highest college-dropout rate in the industrialized world, and in terms of 25-to-34-year-olds with college degrees, it has fallen from first to twelfth.
The second source is the quality of the education available on campus. Nearly half of all students demonstrate “exceedingly small or empirically nonexistent” gains in the skills measured by the Collegiate Learning Assessment, even after two years of full-time schooling, according to a study begun in 2005 by sociologists Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa. (Many education reformers have focused their attention to gains from investments on the other end of the spectrum, in pre-K schooling.)
In 1961, the average undergraduate spent 25 hours a week hitting the books; by 2003, economists Mindy Marks and Philip Babcock recently found, that average had plummeted to thirteen hours.
In a typical semester, one third of the students Arum and Roksa followed for their recent book, Academically Adrift, did not take “any courses that required more than forty pages of reading per week” and half did not take “a single course that required more than twenty pages of writing.”
<and another page snipped out ... longish article>
Quote:Another possibility is that college is an investment—an expenditure on which one can expect high future returns.
This answer is one to which many mainstream economists subscribe. When I spoke to Stephen Rose, a research professor at Georgetown’s Center on Education and the Workforce and the author of Rebound, an optimistic forecast of the postrecession economy, he pointed again and again to what he calls the “totemic number”: 74 percent.
That is the financial benefit—the so-called B.A. wage premium—that economists calculate college graduates can now expect to reap relative to their peers with high-school diplomas. It is a number that has nearly doubled over the past 30 years.
Still another possibility is that the primary role of college today is to serve a “signaling” function—like an elegant business suit, an impressive B.A. advertises talent, pedigree, and ambition employers can use as a hiring shorthand.
<another big snip>
Quote:College is impractical. The liberal arts are hazy, its lessons inapplicable to the real world. “The best way to learn is through purpose-driven education,” Max Marmer, a Stanford student who also dropped out recently in favor of entrepreneurship, told me. “Taking classes in itself is worthless.”
<snip>
Quote:The vast majority of undergraduates are in a peculiar and as yet unresolved bind. On the one hand, a college education will likely saddle them with crippling debt and consign them to four underwhelming years in classrooms with fluorescent lighting and drop-tile ceilings. On the other hand, opting out will likely consign them to a lifetime of unsatisfying, low-wage employment. What’s an average kid to do?
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:
Obviously there are major academic advantages,
this is really in question
@ehBeth,
Yikes on the 1961 quote - that's me.
@ehBeth,
For all the negatives of getting a college education, it's still a fact that college grads earn more than high school grads. I don't think that will change in the future.
@ehBeth,
What you have presented are contradictions.
@cicerone imposter,
I am a college grad who earns less than many high school grads. I know many other college grads who earn very little. The person who waits on you at the mall probably has a degree.
@plainoldme,
I know that there are many college grads who do not earn more than high school grads, but we're talking about the majority. I've seen many stats on earnings based on education level, and all of them show that college grads earn more - on the average than high school grads.
As for anecdotal stuff, our younger son graduated cum laude, and he has no earnings.
Quote:
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the lifetime earnings potential for high school grads is $1.2 million. Those with a Bachelor's degree can expect to make considerably more, roughly $2.1 million. A Master's will give a person slightly more, an average of $2.5 million. The largest payouts, however, are with those with Doctoral or professional degrees, making between $3.4 and $4.4 million over a lifetime.
@djjd62,
I heard many East Europeans hated Russians so they voted against the Liberals. It had nothing to do with his performance. He was a Ruskie as many Americans would call him. Also, he brought the purchase of fighter planes that were to protect Canadian interests in the North that Putin was disputing with Canada so that also threw his loyalty into question though it was never dicussed openly.
A 4 year college (US usage of the word college) or university education has been a mostly a luxury for decades. Wild eyed liberal that I am, I would like many universities to be essentially free except for the odd fees and buying books - in other words, nationally supported (I don't trust states for this).
I get this idea since it is how I got to go to school, living at home with parents with on and off income - mostly off, working 30+ hours a week myself to pay for books, a few clothes, bus fare and the majority of my meals, with university fees starting at $19.00 when I enrolled and $76. the semester I graduated. That was in the early sixties; I won't try to estimate what that would be in today's money. I think education has great value beyond what field of endeavor you will work in for future income. Knowledge of history, philosophy, literature, science, art, and more - are really priceless, and I've always been twigged about the idea that only some financial elite get to be exposed to it.
I think it should be accessible to all, but somewhat rigorous in acceptance - I'm more for tutoring up than zoning down college classes.
I'd like to see many more night schools, perhaps as university extensions, or as night time universities/colleges, with a lot of room for fulfilling course requirements, bunches of years.
I don't know how it goes now, but I think the main university in Mexico City used to be essentially free (fbaezer will know). The University of California system used to be, until Governor Reagan worked to change it. I think the Cal State colleges/later universities and city colleges were too. Indeed, I took Trigonometry and California Citizenship (or something like that) one summer for $7.00.
I think our lack of doing this is a failure of a type of infrastructure, intellectual infrastructure.
Meantime, zillions of dollars go to the mechanics of war, aka incursions, actions.