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Daughter Singled Out Going Thru Airport Security

 
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 01:46 pm
@wandeljw,
Dogs are known for their sensitivity. I love it.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 01:50 pm
@roger,
What if she was smuggling a roast beef into China via the diaper - what do you think the dog would have done?


LOL
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 01:57 pm
@aidan,
If this was important, if there was a real threat, why would the government trust it to poor working schlubs?

You have to look at the larger issue, Aidan, because that's what all this is about, that's what all these small issues are connected to.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that scoring big hit after big hit is not what would be necessary to inflict pain. Why haven't there been hundreds, if not thousands, this is after all a huge worldwide organization, of people spraying malls with gunfire, suicide bombers attacking subways and trains, bombs going off in airports instead of looking to score a big hit on a plane when, any sentient terrorist would grasp this right off, their enemy has put obstacles in their way.

Quote:
I also want to know whose rights have been trampled on. Because I'm a pretty observant person - and I don't see anything particularly horrible happening in these security checks.
Maybe people are too sensitive.
What rights have been trampled? Mine never have- so I'm trying to understand what the major, big, horrible deal is. I honestly don't get it.


Security experts the world over say the US has a terrible system. It "works" for you because you have invested yourself in it thinking that it's being done to protect me. Airlines complain about the stupid things American "security" demands. Other countries laugh at the dumb things done by American "security".

In a Mexican airport, when people started to remove their shoes, "No, no folks, that's not necessary. We're not Americans."

Maybe people aren't sensitive enough to what is really going on.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 01:58 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Give me a break JTT - I'm seriously interested to hear what people
would put instead of or in place of...or as Dadpad said...
would you just have people walk onto the plane as they used to be able to?
I woud, Rebecca; everything was FINE, before
that first hijacking to Cuba. Was it in the 1970s, it seems ?





aidan wrote:
Let's hear a solution from all you cynical experts- you can all tell us what isn't working - tell us what would work - foolproof. I'd love to hear it.

Honestly, whenever I walk onto an airplane, I'm more afraid of turbulence than terrorists
Yeah; me too.





aidan wrote:
- but let's put it this way - if we DIDN'T have to go through these security measures- I'd pretty much bet my life that more nutcases would shoot up planes instead of post offices, malls and synagogues.
That 's not what life was like b4 the first hijacking to Cuba.
It was peaceful.

Restore the status quo ante.
0 Replies
 
electronicmail
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:04 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

That don't work, unfortunately. My 8 year old was tested for explosives,

You are an ignoramus. Your 8-year old wasn't being tested for explosives she was being tested for holding metal in her hands.

If you and the other idiots here bothered to read news as to nail clippers you would know about the Kazakhstan man arrested a couple of days ago trying to get a plane to fly to Libya with threatening a hostess with nail clippers.

Keep harassing the security personnel. Go meet the colonel at his home in Libya. Your kid is worth protecting, you're not.

Losing patience? Rent a jet!
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:10 pm
@JTT,
JTT - Just to be clear - I wouldn't and didn't look down on these people who are doing this job. I don't have a problem with the job they are doing. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is doing any job to make an honest buck is honorable and worthy of respect.
I was referring to the attitude I read as being displayed by others to these people and the job they're doing.

I also am not primarily worried about terrorists when I'm advocating the efficacy and necessity of having security in airports. Honestly - I'd be more worried about some home-grown gun nut than I would a 'foreign terrorist element'.

I get on the plane in London and get off in Newark, NJ. The drill is exactly the same. I don't have to do anything different in London than I do in Newark,, and when I come back, I don't have to do anything different in Newark than I had to do in London.
I don't know what people are talking about. I flew to Italy last year - the drill was exactly the same in Rome as it was in London and Newark. I flew to Athens in 2008. The drill was exactly the same.
I can't speak to Mexico - as the last time I flew there was before 2001 - it was in 1995.

What bothers me is the arrogant attitude that I see displayed by Americans around this issue, because I do think that it's exactly that attitude that makes the rest of the world hate America and Americans.

I don't think there was a legitimate or justified reason for 9/11, but sometimes I understand how the rest of the world can hate America and Americans - and it's here, on this thread that I see it highlighted.
We're talking about OUR rights being trampled because we have to take off our shoes and walk through a metal detector?!
Oh, poor us. You know I was watching the news the other day and the average American uses THREE times the amount of water as the average European. Why? What's the difference? Why does everything have to be better, more and/or bigger and less troublesome for us?
It's just **** like this that drives me insane.

0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  4  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:10 pm
@electronicmail,
You're the idiot -

"To the list of instructions you hear at airport checkpoints, add this: "Put your palms forward, please."

The Transportation Security Administration soon will begin randomly swabbing passengers' hands at checkpoints and airport gates to test them for traces of explosives."
...
"Security experts consulted by CNN said swabbing hands is a good move, and privacy advocates said they support the new swabbing protocols, provided the agency tests only for security-related objects and does not discriminate when it selects people to be tested.

It's a "very good idea," said security expert Tony Fainberg. TSA screeners currently swab luggage handles and parts of bags that are likely be contaminated by human hands, he said, and swabbing a person's hands increases the chances of finding explosive materials. "Looking at the hands means you will probably get a better dose," he said.

Under the new protocols, tests will be conducted at various locations -- including in checkpoint lines, during the screening process and at gates. Newer, more portable machines make it easier to conduct tests away from fixed locations such as the checkpoint.

The TSA has more than 7,000 explosive trace detection (ETD) machines and has purchased 400 additional units with $16 million in federal stimulus money. The president's fiscal 2011 budget calls for $60 million to purchase approximately 800 portable ETD machines.

Napolitano said the tests will not significantly increase wait times at airport checkpoints."

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-17/travel/tsa.hands.swabbing_1_explosive-trace-detection-checkpoint-lines-passengers-hands?_s=PM:TRAVEL
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:13 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
A) Whose rights get trampled on?
Can you name someone whose rights have gotten trampled on?
Does this happen on a daily basis, hourly, monthly - what?
It's ten minutes out of a person's life. They have to take off their shoes
and they might get their toe nail clippers confiscated. So ******* what?!

B) How would you spend the money more usefully?
I'm sincerely curious to hear. Honestly.

What's wrong with the federal government creating jobs for people?
Would you rather have them on welfare?

Truthfully - I don't want to get on a plane with people
who haven't gone through a metal detector and might have weapons in their carry-on bag. I really don't.
Well, u might feel different if u had better defensive firepower in your own bag.
Frangible ammunition is available that will not penetrate an interior wall of the plane.








aidan wrote:
I get pulled out and patted down all the time because I'm white and middle-class
and I guarantee they have to meet their quotas for my type too - so what?
Too many trigger-happy and gun-loving nuts out there these days.
If the GOOD GUYS were all defensively well armed,
then there 'd be no need to body-search for guns any more, Rebecca.

I wish that the American passengers on the hijacked planes of 9/11/1
had all been well armed. The Moslems woud not have had much chance.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:18 pm
@electronicmail,
Linkat wrote:
That don't work, unfortunately. My 8 year old was tested for explosives,
electronicmail wrote:
You are an ignoramus.
How RUDE !
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 02:20 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Well, previous doctrine for passengers was to sit tight and wait for rescue. That isn't going to happen anymore.


Not after watching the fictionalized account of Flight 93, right, DD? They'd all be just like the brave citizens of 93 and whip out their nail clippers that they had smuggled on and cut that ole hijacker/terrorist to shreds.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 03:53 pm
@aidan,
Actually I did give one - bomb sniffing dogs.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 04:02 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
B) How would you spend the money more usefully?
I'm sincerely curious to hear. Honestly.

What's wrong with the federal government creating jobs for people?
Would you rather have them on welfare?

If we're just going to hand people paychecks, we might as well have 'em putting down trails in our national parks. Something more useful than making sure people aren't smuggling water bottles and nail clippers.

aidan wrote:
Truthfully - I don't want to get on a plane with people who haven't gone through a metal detector and might have weapons in their carry-on bag. I really don't.

Strawman.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 04:05 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Actually I did give one - bomb sniffing dogs.


As did I - much higher training for our security staff, combined with metal detectors.

Another suggestion: people wake up and realize that the world is dangerous and nothing we can do will really protect you. So it's about time to get over the idea that we need to be going to greater and greater lengths to provide the illusion of security.

Cycloptichorn
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 04:05 pm
@electronicmail,
Well I guess I am not the only ignoramus as when I asked the question, what do you think she was being tested for - many people answered "explosives".

And according to this CNN article - "TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives", I'd guess CNN is also an ignormus.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-17/travel/tsa.hands.swabbing_1_explosive-trace-detection-checkpoint-lines-passengers-hands?_s=PM:TRAVEL

And I never mentioned nail clippers so I guess I am just an ignoramus and not idiot. And I'd never harassed a security person and never said I was upset at them or lost patience with them. At worst I was amused - and thought it helpful that this experience will then assist me in preventing my daughter from the horrible habit of dragging her feet.

But you must know all this - being of such high intelligence.

0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 04:07 pm
@Mame,
Well Mame is one of those ignormuses as well - as she along with the TSA and other such things believe this all used for explosives.

Don't worry Mame, your in good company
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 04:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
And how about just being watchful yourself - like that cat owner I was ready to pounce on and clip to death with my nail clippers I smuggled on.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 04:57 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

And how about just being watchful yourself - like that cat owner I was ready to pounce on and clip to death with my nail clippers I smuggled on.


MacGyver!!
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 05:10 pm
Well, I'm mixed.

To date, I'm for some security measures. I'm not interested in defending US TSA's present ones, but am wondering about the numbers.. how much actually dangerous stuff they ever found. That data won't be broken out re records, or are they? Maybe that is discernible by those acquainted with the records.

All the too large shampoo bottles make this ludicrous by definition. One can inject ick in a tiny bottle.

I do get random questioning as a concept for a couple of reasons, but I take it that targeting is still en force.

Reminds me of an early in life trip to Guadalajara. I got to the hotel room to open my suitcase and see my clothes covered with red shampoo. (I was rather auburn, that was the shampoo for me that year, until then).

No trouble with border crossing back then. Which in general I think is as it should be.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 05:19 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
B) How would you spend the money more usefully?
I'm sincerely curious to hear. Honestly.


On the off chance that you aren't going to bite my head off for trying, here are some of my thoughts on it.

1) What is the attack surface? This is important, it's child's play to kill a plane's worth of passengers because there is attack surface everywhere. One of the things the TSA does wrong is actually create attack surface. Their long checkpoint lines are more attractive targets than airplanes.

The solution here is to do what Israelis do in their airports, they do not let people pile up anywhere. The TSA screening process should begin from outside the airport instead of just trying to play gatekeeper. They should take a gestalt approach and the screening should start at the curb.

2) It's also important to understand the inherent limitations of preventative security and to understand the risk. The biggest misconception about security is that preventative security keeps you safe, but in reality it plays a much smaller role than punitive security. That is, the reason most attacks are foiled is because the attacker can't survive it and because there are very very few people willing to give their lives (or their freedom) to take down a plane.

So for example, the comments here about how these random samplings aren't likely to catch a terrorist are a bit misguided. That isn't the point, the point is the threat of getting caught more so than thinking that they are going to actually catch people in the act.

With that in mind, a good tactic is to identify and track these small numbers of people who are far more likely to be a threat. Things like the no-fly list can be useful (but it isn't in the case of the US, where it is poorly run in a way where innocents like the CNN reporter who criticized the process can easily get banned and where a father telling us his son is getting on a plane to attack us didn't).

3) The "rent-a-cop" comments are a bit emotionally loaded but are actually an important point. These folks fundamentally lack the skills needed to do a good job and these should be more highly trained experts. The Israelis use observers who are trained in things like psychology, where they can spot suspicious behavior and suspicious reactions. Which brings me to the main improvement I would like to see:

4) It's a lot easier to spot the suspicious behavior than it is the suspicious object. Humans have a harder time concealing emotions than bombs. Israelis use profiling extensively but most Americans just get hung up on the "racial profiling" factor. The real point is "behavior profiling". They look at you, they ask you questions and look at your eyes and body language to identify people to screen more extensively.

Random sampling has value in the security world, but targeted sampling based on behavioral analysis is a tool that American airports should use. Israelis have people watching the whole process, from the curb, and they also interview you (can be questions like "where are you coming from?" etc, the point is just to get observable behavior).

5) Arm pilots (possibly non-lethally). They can already kill everyone if they want, the missile is in their hands. This won't stop a bomber but would do a lot better with hijackers with box cutters.

This isn't an idea that I like too much for a variety of reasons (one of which is additional training and screening requirements for pilots, but the main one is that it isn't a great security boon and might frighten passengers as much as it helps) but the downside is small and pilots are currently being screened for nail clippers when they can crash the plane anytime they want. This is a silly way to treat pilots though I reject their union's calls for the level of screening they prefer.


There it is in a nutshell, and I'd like to add that poor security measures are not just bad due to their failure to do their job but due to a "crying wolf" effect that makes for security "blindness". It's like the terror threat levels that were recently stopped, all they did was condition the public to ignore them because they were clearly not useful. Bad security is harmful not just due to a false sense of security but due to losing buy-in to the process.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2011 05:28 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
Serious question to cy and Robert....Who (meaning someone who counts) are you taking your complaints to? What have you constructively done to change the way things are, if you don't like it?


I do what I can to change my corner of the world. I don't think everyone who criticizes something must dedicate their lives to changing it so we all must pick our spots. I've given up on this one personally*, but will continue to try to change the opinons in my corner of the world.

* When the "don't touch my junk" story peaked in 2010 the geeky crowd I was discussing it with seemed overwhelmingly against the measures but I was surprised to see that a majority of Americans (especially non-flyers) support it. TSA chief John Pistole was called to defend the practices in the Senate and flatly stated "I’m not going to change the policy."

There just doesn't seem to be much political appetite to change things, and given that I haven't been to America since then I don't have any personal motivation to bang my head against that wall too much. I think Americans will need to come around slowly if that is to change and otherwise it doesn't really affect me too much and I'm only willing to try to present reasoned arguments against it to those around me. Gotta pick your spots in life, this isn't gonna be one of mine.
0 Replies
 
 

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