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Can we think of consciousness as a force of nature?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Apr, 2011 05:55 pm
@justintruth,
Thanks for the explanation. Its a bit confusing for my taste. I prefer it when the meaning of a sentence is made as clear and unambiguous as possible. "Experiencing experiencing experiencing" may sound clever, but I think it lacks the precision, clarity and creative inspiration I tend to associate with good use of language. It would be almost impossible to have a conversation over "experiencing experiencing experiencing" without getting lost in confusion.
You make a reference to "experiencing", and to keep all the lines of thought clear you need to constantly specify which "experiencing" you are referring to now. Easily avoided by saying for example, "being is experiencing" instead. Or perhaps "substance interacting", if you feel the cultural bias of those other words clouds your thinking.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 12:14 am
The frog has just been to a new optician ! Smile

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20110307202450data_trunc_sys.shtml
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 12:48 am
@fresco,
Or maybe....Frog tries new pair of designer spectacles ?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Apr, 2011 04:00 am
Many insects play dead when they encounter dangers. Makes alot more sense to me in contrast to the information that frogs only use motion as a means to detect if something is edible.
0 Replies
 
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 05:16 am
@Cyracuz,
On the contrary. I mean it very exactly. When I say "Experiencing experiencing experiencing" I mean that that is it exactly and unambiguously. It is a literal statement. There are not multiple "experiencing" referred to.
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 06:27 am
@fresco,
Nice try but I happen to be living in Madrid and have great access to Spanish language coaching. I mean it like this:"La mosca es" Now you resolve what that Spanish sentence means and you will find it means exactly what "The fly is" means in English. Now that you know what I mean you can look at what I am saying instead of how I am saying it.

Its a cheap dodge your trying between ser and estar. Both English and Spanish sentences refer to a fact. The fly is. You can't dodge it by referring to a language issue. The issue itself translates.

Unless you believe that the sensory apparatus of the frog has something to do with the existence of the fly which your words say. Do you really believe that how either a human or a frog perceives a fly matters as to how the fly itself is? Is that your theory? Or that somehow Spanish speakers don't agree with that independence? That their language is some how superior and can be brought in to defend the theory that the fly that the frog sees is not the fly that I see? You are missing the meaning of objective existence both in Spanish and English.

Objectivity is trans-cultural probably but at least it is across the US and Spain. I know this from direct interaction with Spanish engineers. They are extraordinary, and I assure you very competent and manipulating and describing objective models in English or Spanish. The experience of the fly by either us or the frog is a result of the fly, our sensory and cognitive apparatus and the intervening signals usually light. But the fly itself is not a result of our sensory and cognitive apparatus nor of the intervening signals. This is true in Spanish or English.

Purdurance? Warmed over Minkowski. I am not talking about how the object is conceived. Only in the idea of separation of causality into that which is natural and that which is external. For example in classical physics linear motion is natural and curved motion must be due to an external cause. Latter we reassigned the causality. My point is that the presence of objects cannot be due the the presence of objects in the past. Even a single object, whether conceived of as enduring or peduring and even if it is not changing, is not explained by what it. It still requires causality ex nihilo. That is what its "just being" refers to.

Perhaps you should consider that my explanation is unusual in that I am not kowtowing to anything. That is certainly not my intent. I do however believe that objectification exists - we are talking about it - because it is so overwhelmingly predictive of most of our experience. It is possible to imagine non objective worlds but ours is to a large extent objective. Only with very detailed examination are we beginning to see the extent to which objectivity does not describe our world. I think for example that boolean logic will need to be reformed and I do not think that there is a single image that can be constructed that describes the way things are.

It is not chauvinism or parochialism to see the meaning of objectivity and to recognize it as a valid description of a lot of our experience. The idea of abandoning the idea that a fly exists and is then, subsequently, illuminated, and then perceived by either the organism of a human or of a frog and substituting for it some idea of the frog somehow constituting a moving fly through its perception really botches a very good description.

The connection that Capra popularized is best understood by realizing that objectivity is, to some extent as determined by the careful observations of physics, a real aspect of what we are experiencing. The Tao is the fact of the experiencing itself. One should not conflate metaphysics with physics. They are not the same thing.

At first I saw a tree and it was a tree. Then I saw the tree and it was the Tao. And then I saw a tree and it was a tree.

You must get to the final step.







Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 07:46 am
@justintruth,
Hola !
I misjudge you and for that I apologise...after all there is a talk in place...
Nevertheless a "fly" has a conceptual extension which is defined by the way we perceive it as an object regarding the functions that we can observe from it...our experience of a fly very much defines what it is and what it does, that much you have to admit.
I am convinced that behind and beyond that conceptual frame there is something which is actual and objective not for itself but in itself, but is not our place to define it...less alone to say where "it" starts or where "it" ends...
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 07:50 am
@justintruth,
Experiencing (subject) experiencing (action) experiencing (reality).

How is it not confusing if you are having a discussion over this, and the words for the subject, the action and reality are identical?
If you say "experiencing", how am I to know wether you are talking about the subject, the action or reality?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 07:53 am
@Cyracuz,
Your right on that, but can you address the remaining of his post...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 07:56 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I can, but it will have to wait. Busy day. Smile
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 08:04 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
The experience of the fly by either us or the frog is a result of the fly, our sensory and cognitive apparatus and the intervening signals usually light. But the fly itself is not a result of our sensory and cognitive apparatus nor of the intervening signals. This is true in Spanish or English.


partially true...There is something in there but it certainly it is not constrained to be a "fly"...
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 10:11 am
@justintruth,
Quote:
Its a cheap dodge your trying between ser and estar. Both English and Spanish sentences refer to a fact. The fly is. You can't dodge it by referring to a language issue. The issue itself translates.

The point about the two verbs is that "being" is a philosophical minefield and some languages reflect nuances of that. Interestingly, Heidegger made a good living from attempted analysis of that minefield ! Smile

Note also that "facts" are constructions (from facere to make).
http://able2know.org/topic/152953-1
0 Replies
 
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 01:50 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
No problema...

"Here is where we agree: "a "fly" has a conceptual extension which is defined by the way we perceive it as an object regarding the functions that we can observe from it...our experience of a fly very much defines what it is and what it does"

I think that is exactly right and to define a fly without referring to what we experience would make the definition one outside of *empirical* natural science. I am not sure what it would be then. And if you want to include being ready to hand go ahead.

I do not agree here: "I am convinced that behind and beyond that conceptual frame there is something which is actual and objective not for itself but in itself"

I agree with everything but "behind and beyond". I believe that the objectivity is part of the conceptual frame. It is just that the meaning of the conceptual frame is that the objects exist even when they are not in our presence and being experienced. I do not agree that there are "worlds behind the scenes" as Sartre put it. Instead I think that the idea of an objects within the context of natural science is based on something that is empirically true about our observations. By positing objects that exist in space beyond our immediate experience and by positing the dependence of our consciousness on our bodies both from a material causality point of view and also to achieve the separation between the perceived and the perceiver we get a theory that fits with what we experience to a large degree and is much simpler that assuming that my car just pops into being whenever I see it. I therefore believe that those objects exist. In fact that theory conditions my perceptions. I don't just believe that they exist I see them - usually. I get up off of my bed and go into the bathroom and turn on the shower etc. All the time I am perceiving and using those objects. Furthermore the laws of physics when applied to those objects does limit the logically possible to the physically possible and I believe in the validity of the physical law. I believe in the reality of the universe.

However, I caveat that by understanding *all* physical laws are empirical and therefore based on experience and subject to invalidation in the future. My belief in objects is *empirical*. I believe that they "continue to exist" when I do not see them. I believe that they exist even when no one sees them because it explains a lot of the things that I do in fact experience. If in the future that changes, and to some extent it has with the introduction of modern physics, but only some extent, then I will adopt another theory. That is the progress of science. I believe in science.

Perhaps I can say it using your words but substituting the universe for the fly: "The objective universe has a conceptual extension which is defined by the way we perceive it as an object regarding the functions that we can observe from it...our experience of the universe very much defines what it is and what it does" I add only: That is why they call it an empirical science and that is why we have to do experiments to know what objects exist and what that *in fact* means.

The fact of experiencing of coarse cannot be explained naturally, even given the natural facts of the material causality that resulted in my birth, neurology and consciousness. That is because all of that is only material causality and does nothing to explain the fact of experiencing itself. Material causality simply is not ex nihilo.

Anyway... that's what I think. Sorry for the long posts.
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 02:08 pm
@Cyracuz,
Because I am trying to point out precisely that when in that state they are identical. The subject is identical to the action which is identical to the object. It is experiencing that is experiencing experiencing.

They are distinct only after the objectification occurs when I become separate from it. Then I am not experiencing experiencing experiencing rather I am, for example, looking at my car. Then the physical separation is experienced between me and it and, when I am being scientific, I explain this fact and a set of related ones by understanding that a photon travels from the car to my eye and from there the signal travels on the optical channel to the brain and I see it.

I claim that it is possible though not easy to use ones will to switch ones interpretation from one of these to the other and subsequently there is an experience. It is something that can happen to your experience. You can see it both ways.

Its like the line drawing of a cube. You can will to see it the other way. And after a while, suddenly, you do.

Asking which is correct "Experiencing experiencing experiencing" or "Me experiencing my car" is like asking whether the sun is *actually* 10 feet from the earth or 93 million miles. Both are correct once you know the meaning of the statements.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 08:50 pm
@justintruth,
its all very right but is not that I question the truthfulness on what we experience because such and such conceptual extension does n´t exhaust the "thing"...that has been my fight with some folks around like Fresco which question it the way you have previously exemplified...I just posit a sort of meta-object...several functions, or sets of functions, thus several objects in the very same object...
...objects in the object in which all potential relational operations are true...(we get some of it)
...you certainly remember the 80´s film...a coca-cola bottle can also be a hammer, a jar and a hell lot more...there are billions of potential functions in it...that was my point.
...also it is not that you can speak of objects without relations (functions)...although true the "DNA" its not just in one side...
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 12:24 am
@justintruth,
Quote:
Because I am trying to point out precisely that when in that state they are identical. The subject is identical to the action which is identical to the object. It is experiencing that is experiencing experiencing.


Good luck talking about that Wink
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 12:25 am
@Cyracuz,
What I mean is that a holistic or non-dualistic perspective such as you describe defies lingual description by definition. On that perceptual level words are meaningless.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 12:47 am
Fil Albuquerque wrote
Quote:
There is something in there but it certainly it is not constrained to be a "fly".

justintruth wrote
Quote:
You must get to the final step.


These quotes illustrate where the two of you differ from me. You both want
closure.....you want an axiomatic theory which accounts for the experience of what we call "perception".

My position, like that of Rorty, is that this is playing a pseudo-scientific game. Of course we live our lives as though there were an objective world with persistent "objects" and "selves" But on closer scrutiny, such persistence becomes intellectually problematic in the light of both counter intuitive notions of "time" from physics, and from philosophical consideration of the persistence of "words" influencing our belief in the persistence of their referents.

When the OP asks "Is consciousness a force of nature ?" we are immediately invited to play "scientific games" by using the nebulous metaphors of "force" and "nature". Now it may well be that "cosmic consciousness" is an ultimate requirement "to account for" the nature of what we call "existence", but that would be equivalent to "the closure" as in a religious claim. On the other hand, it may make more sense to realise that there is no possibility of such closure...that all we can do is pay heed to the ontological interdependence of "observer" and "observed" in those occasional transcendent moments we all have of re-assessing our existence in the manner of Heidegger's Dasein.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 01:39 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Can we think of consciousness as a force of nature?
Yes
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Apr, 2011 03:56 am
@fresco,
Next time some friend of yours looses an arm or a leg in the surgery room tell him that OK ! No really, where do you draw the line ?
There´s a big difference in saying that an object can fulfil several roles and saying that none of them are real...
 

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