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European Court of Human Rights: Crucifixes are acceptable in public school classrooms

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 10:29 am
@saab,
Quote:
"A cross in Italy is not a religious symbol but a symbol of Italian culture"


BULLSHIT
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 10:35 am
@saab,
Quote:
It could - according to Scandinavian papers - gone so far that we in Scandinavia and all together I think 19 flags from 19 European countries could have been forced to change our flags.
These 19 countries have a christian symbol in them. The cross in the Scandinavian flags were from the beginning a Christian symbol.


NONSENSE....I can remember when the Equal Rights Amendment was being debated in the US dishonest people came up this the theory that to grant women equal rights under the US Constitution would somehow mandate single sex public bathrooms!!!!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 10:43 am
@saab,
Quote:
A star was often from the beginning a Christian symbol. A symbol of the Star of Bethlehem, Christmas and advent. Should then also the flags of USA and EU not be allowed to have stars just in case some one would find that against their believes?


So you question your ability to defense your position without being dishonest?

A star by itself have never been a universal symbol of Christianity however a cross had been for most of the history of this religion.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 10:48 am
@BillRM,
From your answers I can see that you have lately neither read any Scandinavian nor Italian newspapers.
MJA
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 10:58 am
Italy or anywhere, why do people memorialize and honor a crucifixion or torturous death of another, it seems barbarically dark and evil to me?
How do Christians view it?
=
MJA
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 11:02 am
@saab,
Dear friend I could careless about some way out theory that a newspaper writer came up to defense forcing a religion symbol down the throats of parents and children that are not part of that religion in a public school system.

There were also no good reasons to not to have the Equal Right Amendment pass in the US in the 1960s but some newspapers writers came up with the way out theory that to pass this amendment would mean we all would need to share one sex bathrooms in public places just as some writers seem to be reaching that countries flags will need to be change.

Nonsense is nonsense and this have nothing to do with countries flags anymore then the ERA have to do with bathrooms.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 11:33 am
Footnote in the US we do not allow religion symbols in a public classroom but we do have in god we trust on our coins.

Coins and counties flags are one thing public classrooms are another.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 06:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
If you allow religious symbols on a wall then why wouldn't you allow all religions to hang symbols on that same wall ?

Quote:
if you think that Jewish children are to be hung on a classroom wall or Muslims ...
You are either outright lying or your English has let you down . In either case, if that was your best effort at a retort you need to re-read it and try again .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 06:44 pm
@MJA,
Quote:
why do people memorialize and honor a crucifixion or torturous death of another
Thats how it seemed to the early Christians too . It took hundreds of years for it to be acceptable .

It theory it represents Christ dying for our sins .
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 06:52 pm
@Ionus,
If memory serve me correctly the first symbol for this cult was a fish.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 06:53 pm
@BillRM,
There were several . The first official symbol was the Chi-Ro .
MJA
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 07:50 pm
@Ionus,
"Thats how it seemed to the early Christians too . It took hundreds of years for it to be acceptable .
It theory it represents Christ dying for our sins ."


Do you mean cruxifying Jesus to death was good or for the good of us all?
Christians think torture was or is good?

=
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 08:00 pm
@Ionus,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_symbolism

IchthysMain article: Ichthys
Among the symbols employed by the early Christians, that of the fish seems to have ranked first in importance. Indeed, from monumental sources such as tombs we know that the symbolic fish was familiar to Christians from the earliest times. It can be seen in such Roman monuments as the Capella Greca and the Sacrament Chapels of the catacomb of St Callistus. The fish was depicted as a Christian symbol in the first decades of the 2nd century.[4] The symbol itself may have been suggested by the miraculous multiplication of the loaves and fishes or the repast of the seven Disciples, after the Resurrection, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee.[5] Its popularity among Christians was due principally, it would seem, to the famous acrostic consisting of the initial letters of five Greek words forming the word for fish (Ichthys), which words briefly but clearly described the character of Christ and the claim to worship of believers: Iesous Christos Theou Yios Soter, meaning, Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour.[4]

[edit] Tomb paintingsChristians from the very beginning adorned their catacombs with paintings of Christ, of the saints, of scenes from the Bible and allegorical groups. The catacombs are the cradle of all Christian art.[6] Early Christians accepted the art of their time and used it, as well as a poor and persecuted community could, to express their religious ideas. From the second half of the 1st century to the time of Constantine the Great they buried their dead and celebrated their rites in these underground chambers. The Christian tombs were ornamented with indifferent or symbolic designs—palms, peacocks, with the chi-rho monogram, with bas-reliefs of Christ as the Good Shepherd, or seated between figures of saints, and sometimes with elaborate scenes from the New Testament.[6] Other Christian symbols include the dove (symbolic of the Holy Spirit), the sacrificial lamb (symbolic of Christ's sacrifice), the vine (symbolising the necessary connectedness of the Christian with Christ) and many others. These all derive from the writings found in the New Testament.[3] Other decorations that were common included garlands, ribands, stars landscapes, which had symbolic meanings, as well.[6]

[edit] Cross and crucifix
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2011 08:05 pm
@BillRM,
You learn something new everyday.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho


Chi RhoFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search

The Chi-Rho symbolThe Chi Rho is one of the earliest forms of christogram, and is used by Christians. It is formed by superimposing the first two letters in the Greek spelling of the word Christ ( Greek : "Χριστός" ), chi = ch and rho = r, in such a way to produce the monogram ☧. Although not technically a cross, the Chi Rho invokes the crucifixion of Jesus as well as symbolizing his status as the Christ.[1]

The Chi-Rho symbol was also used by pagan Greek scribes to mark, in the margin, a particularly valuable or relevant passage; the combined letters Chi and Rho standing for chrēston, meaning "good."[2][3] Some coins of Ptolemy III Euergetes were marked with a Chi-Rho.[4]

Contents [hide]
1 Christian accounts of Constantine's adoption of the Chi-Rho
2 Modern interpretations of Constantine's vision
3 Celestial chi
4 Later usage
5 Gallery
6 Notes
7 References
8 See also


[edit] Christian accounts of Constantine's adoption of the Chi-Rho
Missorium depicting Constantine's son Constantius II accompanied by a guardsman with the Chi Rho depicted on his shield.According to Lactantius,[5] a Latin historian of North African origins saved from poverty by the patronage of Constantine I as tutor to his son Crispus, Constantine had dreamt of being ordered to put a "heavenly divine symbol" (Latin: coeleste signum dei) on the shields of his soldiers. The description of the actual symbol chosen by Constantine the next morning, as reported by Lactantius, is not very clear: it closely resembles a Chi Rho or a staurogram, a similar Christian symbol. That very day Constantine's army fought the forces of Maxentius and won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (312), outside Rome.

Writing in Greek, Eusebius of Caesarea (died in 339), the bishop who wrote the first surviving general history of the early Christian churches, gave two different accounts of the events. In his church history, written shortly after the battle, when Eusebius didn't yet have any contact with Constantine, he doesn't mention any dream or vision, but compares the defeat of Maxentius (drowned in the Tiber) to that of the biblical pharaoh and credits Constantine's victory to divine protection.


Constantine's labarum, a standard incorporating the wreathed Chi-Rho, from an antique silver medal.In a memoir of the emperor that Eusebius wrote after Constantine's death (On the Life of Constantine, c. 337–339), a miraculous appearance came in Gaul long before the Milvian Bridge battle. In this later version, the emperor had been pondering the misfortunes that befall commanders that invoke the help of many different gods, and decided to seek divine aid in the forthcoming battle from the One God. At noon Constantine saw a cross of light imposed over the sun. Attached to it, in Greek characters, was the saying "Τούτω Νίκα!".[6] Not only Constantine, but the whole army saw the miracle. That night Christ appeared to the emperor in a dream and told him to make a replica of the sign he had seen in the sky, which would be a sure defence in battle.

Eusebius wrote in the Vita that Constantine himself had told him this story "and confirmed it with oaths," late in life "when I was deemed worthy of his acquaintance and company." "Indeed," says Eusebius, "had anyone else told this story, it would not have been easy to accept it."

Eusebius also left a description of the labarum, the military standard which incorporated the Chi-Rho sign, used by Constantine in his later wars against Licinius.[7]

[
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 05:32 am
@BillRM,
That was interesting - thanks.
I kind of thought the crucifix was the first christian symbol in Scandinavia.
Thinking about Ansgar as a monk with a cross.
I checked and I was wrong. The first Christian symbols in Sweden were runstones.
As you said - one learn something new all the time.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 07:16 am
@saab,
I still think that you were correct, saab, about the cross being the first Christian symbol in Scandinavia.

That's at least according to the first (and only) written documents: the Vita Ansgarii, by Saint Rimbert (aka Rembert), Gesta Hamburgensis ecclesiae pontificum by Adam of Bremen (aka Adamus Bremensis) and of course the runestones (for instance the Lingsberg Runestone, the Djulafors Runestone, and some hundred more).

Only two (or three) Christian runestones are without crosses (e.g. the Stenkvista runestone in Södermanland, Sweden, shows Thor's hammer instead of a cross).
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 07:24 am
@MJA,
It was supposed to eliminate original sin . It is a very complex and hard to believe doctrine .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 07:30 am
@BillRM,
I am not sure what you are getting at, but I was correct when I said the first OFFICIAL symbol was the Chi-Rho symbol as used by Constantinius . Being a cynic however, I prefer to believe he chose it because the enemy army had a large number of Christians and he wanted to put them off by displaying it on his shields and hopefully taking the edge off of them in combat . The fish goes way back to the beginning of Christianity, but it was never official though it was probably the first symbol .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 07:42 am
@Ionus,
I'm not sure, how Constantinus could choose an "official" symbol for Christians.

However, in Rome, before his time, the fish was mainly THE symbol employed by the early Christians ... besides about of various others.

But Tertullianu wrote about the cross as symbol already in the 2nd/3rd century as well.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2011 07:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I'm not sure, how Constantinus could choose an "official" symbol for Christians.
By being Emperor and making Christianity the official state religion .

Quote:
But Tertullianu wrote about the cross as symbol already in the 2nd/3rd century as well.


The cross was never popular until well after Constantinius banned crucifixion . The Chi-Rho was adopted by the state under him . I am not familiar with what Tertullianus wrote about the cross....can you quote it ?

 

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