Math and God

I guess the "mathematical proof" of God by Godel is nothing but a demonstration of logical consistency of an object (God-like) endowed with all the positive values (what is "positive" is unknown to humans).


See the discussion around Feb 12, 2003 in the following thread.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2299&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=390

I've read damn near every "proof" of the existence of God to which I've had access -- and damn near every "proof" that there are no gods...

...and anyone with an open mind would easily spot the defects in the reasoning and logic in each and every one of them.

My guess is this "mathematical proof" is no more a valid "proof" of the existence of God than are the ontological arguments in that direction.

But like you, I cannot make heads nor tails of it.

I point out that there is a conspicous lack of mathematicians in the pulpit... they are not convinced either.

I don't see how math could prove that there is a God. If there is a God than math would be part of his creation, how could he be proved by his own creation. For that matter I do not see why math needs to prove that there is a God.

Which (if I'm reading it right) basically says you can't prove or disprove the existence of God. It all comes back to faith.

God is phi
I have heard that mathematics is the language of God. But my limited knowledge hasn't supplied me with a proof one way or another.

I my limited knowledge has granted my faith an appreciation of the wonder.

Godel's incompleteness has provided arguing points, but has not provided proof, just more wonder.

Rap

Godel's incompleteness implies that you must believe in mathematics if you are to sincerely live on the fruits of math (almost every scientific findings and technology), for the consistency of math cannot be proved.

A rephrase of Godel's Theorem that I have heard: there are things that are true that cannot be proven.

There are statesments that are true but cannot be proven to be "true" nor "false."

Re: God is phi


"mathematics is the language of God" -- quite true. Unfortunately, the christian definition of 'God' and mine differ. Mathematics describes our universe and will (one day) be able to predict the outcome of any event. Heck, today we can do QUITE a bit with math... ever wonder how scientists know the circumference of the earth? Or the voltage fluctuation of a tacheon? It's not from measuring it, I can guarantee you!

All i'm saying is that "god" is a simple answer to everything. You could easily say that the world was created by god... according to any good christian, no person could ever easily comprehend the answer to that question. Well, a good mathematician might be able to... and thus they might be able to speak "god's" language.

--ps--i'm really, really, really tired right now, so don't lecture me on punctuation, spelling, grammar, or rambling, k? thanks.

Another position of Godel is that everything can't be known. That is, if you have a system you can't have reached a position where you can't positively state that you've proven everything about that system,

IOW, what you know is incomplete and what you can know will always be incomplete.

Rap

the_nautilus wrote

Anyone that claims to 'know' God is (IMO) misguided. Just a Godel seems to be saying our knowledge is always going to be incomplete.

But now we've fallen into the slippery slope of personal theology and I'm sure ours differ even if we were both Christian, Hebrew, Bhuddist, Taoist, or Jain.

Personally, the only religious universal I've found is that 'One man's religion can be another man's belly laugh' and according to the gospel of St Mark (Twain) a dogmatic belly laugh usually doesn't require two individuals.

Rap

Really?
Anyone who claims to know God or understand His wisdom, is a confused person. Our finite thinking CANNOT fully comprehend the INFINITE mind of God. In the Bible Jesus stated that people were confused when He spoke of earthly matters and that they would be more confused if He had decided to provide details about heavenly places and matters beyond human comprehension.

In other words:

Human mind DOES NOT EQUAL the mind of God.
We get confused with simple things.
How much more with heavenly things?
Many people don't even know what fractions are but yet they dare challenge God. WOW!! Talk about pride, right?????

Re: Really?


How about:
Anyone who claims to know there is (or is not) a God, is a confused person.

Math is god.

I mentioned it last year:

The ratio 0/0 is indeterminate but true. You can get nothing from nothing
The ratio of 1/0 is infinity but an impossibilty as you can't get something from nothing as Julie Andrews sing in The Sound of Music "you can't get something from nothing you never ever could..."

So if there was nothing before Creation there could be no God=1/0. It is easier for an inanimate object to be created than a complex God-like being so the impossibilty is greater for a God to come out of nothing than for a universe to come out of nothing.

It could be that the universe always existed and God like 'life' evolved out of the cycle of order and chaos that seems to exist in the Universe. God could just be man's creation.

However, the proviso is that our knowledge and senses are limited. Our Science and Math are limited by our senses. Perhaps if there is another dimension we, everyone not a select few, can access that clearly enable us to sense a god then truly we can agree that there is a god.

What do ratios have to do with anything? Math is there, laws of science are there, whether we perceive them or not. Our perception only determines the degree to which we see them, if at all, not the laws themselves.

We also dont know about whether there was anything before "creation," or if there even was one. The big bang could just be another step in the evolution of the universe.

Something from nothing could occur,however, if you see the universe as a function f(x)=x, cause then it would be 0 at time 0, and then would evolve like a line,

Probability Ratios are part of Mathematics. It is just basic College Mathematics.